I'll admit that I only read through page two. 
 
Here's is what I have to say about ANY OS UI.
 
I use it about for about 3% of my total computing time. So I couldn't give a rat's behind about how it looks.
 
Now, interwebs browser, DAW and VSTs, that another story..... they darn well better suit me or they are history.

kitekrazy1

John
Its Apple that resembles big brother not Microsoft. Only their approved software is allowed to run on their approved hardware. However, they are the ones that scream big brother about IBM and Microsoft. Its the big lie that for some reason people believe. 

 So true but MS seems to do a better job as pissing people off.  Rumor has it before W8 came out MS execs ignored that it wouldn't go over well.

I think people judge MS more critically than most any other technology company. People love underdogs and they hate successes. I worked there while Win 8 was in development (I left MS in 2012 after 15 years there. Full disclosure, I was not part of the Windows dev team.) That OS and its visual design language was a bet-the-company effort to out-innovate the competition, period. For years we've heard people in the press and in the industry who "knew the market" that MS was no longer an innovative company, that it was resting on its laurels and living off the fat of Windows and Office. (All of which was patent BS, by the way.)
 
So for Windows 8 the company invested hugely in a multi-year, multi-version effort to re-invent the Windows platform, it's development tools and even assumptions about its hardware form-factor. It's difficult to describe the sheer breadth of the changes made across the company in every single product and technology to align with that vision. Imagine our surprise when those same smart people pooped their pants over our "arrogance" at daring to alter the sacred Windows 7 paradigm. I laughed my butt off.
 
Many of us called for sticking to the plan and to move forward and fully implement the vision staked out in Windows 8, but new leadership wimped and basically changed the visuals back to W7, keeping only the fonts, color scheme and icons. All imho, of course.
 

bitman
M.S. is likely trying the herd us all into one pen so they can then "update" Windows to a play to use model. That's why it is free kiddos. Your C drive and the setup you have going there is your toy for your use whenever you see fit - keep it that way  Win 10 is "license to run software" run amok.
 
Imagine if your Tonka toys went rental, you would have thrown a fit!
 
The start menu isn't even that great.
I'm sticking with 7 until kingdom come.
 

That's why I imaged my Win 7 installation before upgrading. Thank goodness for real installation discs and product keys. If anyone wants to find out the keys for MS software on your machine, you can use ''.
 
As far as I'm concerned, anything that is installed on a computer is a software PRODUCT not a service. The subscription only model is bad for consumers. At least Cakewalk and AV software companies have it right by allowing users to keep what they paid for. To hold users to ransom by pulling everything that they have paid for needs looking into by trading standards organisations. I get that if subscriptions are not renewed that FUTURE services will be withheld, but to remove prior purchased products or downgrade to free versions should not be allowed. The product should be left at the state it was when the renewal was not taken. Companies wouldn't be able to take an install disc off someone after a year.

Doktor Avalanche

When Cakewalk drops support of Win7 or Win8 for Sonar, because the latest Microsoft libraries force them to do so, much like when they had to drop Vista support, don't say I didn't warn you! Also please don't expect the wait for that to happen to be as long as Vista had.

Not only that your drivers and plugins suppliers will also be forgetting about these OS's.

Or another way to look at it is that your current large investment in hardware/drivers and plugins will gradually stop working as you move on to an "improved experience" that will cost you more in trouble and treasure than just the cost of a "free" upgrade, and far more than just staying with an OS on which current products will work. As Cakewalk moves into the future, and breaks with the past, your investment in time and stuff will be eroded. The only defense is to learn to use what you have and stop dreaming that the newest system is going to make your music better. If a violinist had to keep up with an instrument that is adding another string every couple of years, it would not necessarily make it a better violin, nor would it make him a better violinist. Pro Audio was a major improvement over Cakewalk (the sequencer, not the company) in terms of new features for those so inclined. The difference between X1 and X3 not so much. Sure the bugs in your current version will never be fixed unless you constantly get something new, but the new bugs will never be fixed without getting something new either, even if it is just the next monthly update while waiting to pay the next yearly membership/subscription fee. 

I have a question. I don't have internet at my house(I use my phone to get on the forum). Is there a way that I can give Microsoft my serial # and download the files or request a disc?

slartabartfast

Doktor Avalanche

When Cakewalk drops support of Win7 or Win8 for Sonar, because the latest Microsoft libraries force them to do so, much like when they had to drop Vista support, don't say I didn't warn you! Also please don't expect the wait for that to happen to be as long as Vista had.

Not only that your drivers and plugins suppliers will also be forgetting about these OS's.

Or another way to look at it is that your current large investment in hardware/drivers and plugins will gradually stop working as you move on to an "improved experience" that will cost you more in trouble and treasure than just the cost of a "free" upgrade, and far more than just staying with an OS on which current products will work. As Cakewalk moves into the future, and breaks with the past, your investment in time and stuff will be eroded. The only defense is to learn to use what you have and stop dreaming that the newest system is going to make your music better. If a violinist had to keep up with an instrument that is adding another string every couple of years, it would not necessarily make it a better violin, nor would it make him a better violinist. Pro Audio was a major improvement over Cakewalk (the sequencer, not the company) in terms of new features for those so inclined. The difference between X1 and X3 not so much. Sure the bugs in your current version will never be fixed unless you constantly get something new, but the new bugs will never be fixed without getting something new either, even if it is just the next monthly update while waiting to pay the next yearly membership/subscription fee. 

Exactly. I continue to be quite happy with 8.5.3 on Windows Seven Pro. I see no reason for that to change until 2020. Even then, I can continue, keeping that computer offline. But I think by then, I will have made a clean break from Windows, and be happily making music on Linux, probably with Reaper. In fact, the break could be coming soon, as Reaper will be incorporating a score editor soon. Then I will have a free OS, with free updates, and a DAW that cost a whopping $60.00. And Microsoft and whoever else won't be spying on me.

Doktor Avalanche
... All the start screen was anyway was an extra large start menu.

Actually I would beg to differ a little here.
 
The model for the Win 8 start screen was a touch pad with a fingerprint as the de facto scale factor. That made things much larger than a mouse pointer requires. But, moreover, the model was flat, not hierarchical. One had to scroll to see everything. With a mouse pointer and a hierarchical structure (folders, if you will), it was much easier to organize into compartments of functions that could all be seen in a small area.
 
The start screen has no folders and the compartments are small columnar areas with names at the top. That made scrolling over a large installation rather tedious, even if one placed all the most common stuff on the main screen area. So there is a tradeoff of extra mouse clicks into a hierarchy or extra hand swipes to move over a screen.
 
Naturally desktop mouse users would stay on the desktop where things were practically unchanged since Windows 7, so long as a start button replacement was provided.
 
In Windows 10, I still use the Classic Start Button enhancement as my 'Start' corner icon, but configure the Windows key to trigger the Win 10 Start menu. So I can use either rather easily.
 
My own feeling is that touch oriented things are best suited to small devices where portability is important and one doesn't want to carry a bunch of add-ons like a mouse or keypad.
 
If I had my way, this would all be voice activated like Star Trek computers so we could avoid all physical gestures.
 
One thing I find happening often on my laptop is that the touchpad sometimes triggers a mouse click event and things get activated/launched rather than selected/highlighted. The settings have to be tweaked and the fingers have to be trained. If I went to a different computer I might have to re-learn those instincts. I don't know if the touchscreen has similar issues. I do have a 10-point touchscreen, but I almost never use it. My hands stay in the keyboard/mouse area, not the screen area.
 
I suppose in the end it all boils down to one's habitual ways of working as seeming the best way to do things. And we all have a reluctance to change long-established habits.
 
Before the mouse came along, everything was keyboard-oriented and the new-fangled mouse seemed like an unnecessary add-on, but now I think of it as a keyboard extension.
 
 

stxx
I went to 10 and stayed for under and after an hour went back to 7 (which to my surprise both the upgrade to 10 AND the revert back worked perfectly!)    First, the Firewire controller and drivers would not load.   I have FW 1884 that uses legacy FW driver and that would be come up.   There are fixes out there that I looked up but I just didn;t want to go through that.   Also, some of my plugin's stopped working or wouldn't load correctly and since everything really was working perfectly on 7 and I started to panic and get an anxiety attack, I went back to 7 which I think is awesome anyway.   I had told myself awhile ago,  if it ain't broke, don't fix it so why I went to it 10 in the first place really is beyond me.    Someone also had posted some SONAR performance comparisons between 7 and 10 and there really was not any major compelling data to really support a move.   As for Windows support, I have NEVER in the now 20 some odd years of using Windows (since 3.1) ever call Microsoft for support so the fact that at some point, likely MANY years away, when Win 7 goes out of lifecycle, whatever is wrong will likely have a solution out there in some knowledge base or forum and I still won't ever need to call them.  
 
Latest song fro my latest CD release coming up:
http://allenlind.com/bugs..2015/01%20Track%201.mp3

My FW410 works in W10.  Are you using onboard firewire?

I've noticed a lot of FW Sapphires going on sale. I wonder if those will be future doorstops.  The latest Focusrite FW units will work with a Thunderbolt adapter.
I hope you take this up with Focusrite support.  My list of bo not buy hardware vendors gets longer. If I could do it all over again it would be nothing but RME and possibly Focusrite.
I have an old Intel machine that has onboard FW. That use to be a standard on Intlel boards.  I still have an AMD system with FW that's a VIA chipset and never had a problem with that.  

stxx
I'm not using onboard FW.  I have TI chipset FW adapters and an PCI(e) expansion box.  Also I have a focusrite saffire  56 where I mix and that was not coming online either which is also FW.    For some of this, the legacy drivers are needed and not readily supported without a fix.   I also have a lot of other stuff and was generating error messages including some plugins that wouldn't load.  I just wasn't ready for these headaches.  In the end, I know I could have made all this work eventually.... but why?   There are no real benefits as far as I can tell.   I expect Sonar and Win 7 to work for some time to come.   By the time it doesn't I'll likely be ready for a new computer anyway...   My music machine is dedicated to music so I couldn't care less really about many of the other Win 10 features.    Better multitasking certainly is a consideration but that hasn't caused me issues yet so that benefit now goes in the "so what?" column.

Saffire should work great. With thunderbolt 3 on the way are being more generally distributed it should see a resurgence. Under windows 10 the only documented issue with Saffire is some VIA firewire chipsets...
 
Have you tried this?
 
http://us.focusrite.com/downloads/saffire-mix-control-36
 
If you install it make sure you backup/completely uninstall mix control/reboot/install/reboot/reset the hardware.
Make sure you remove the firewire legacy drivers as well in device manager afterwards (roll back to the defaults).
 
Also have you checked for any updated firmware and drivers for your firewire card?
 
Thanks...

Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]

kevinwal
 
Many of us called for sticking to the plan and to move forward and fully implement the vision staked out in Windows 8, but new leadership wimped and basically changed the visuals back to W7, keeping only the fonts, color scheme and icons. All imho, of course.
 

Kevin I agree with most of what you say except for the above. Having been involved with the changes at MS through various generations including the Vista-Win8 period, there was definitely a marked difference here. While I was happy for MS pushing the envelope and developing a hybrid model scalable across devices form factors, management lost sight of a key factor which is what ultimately led to the failure. What matters most to users is the *software* running on Windows not Windows itself. There was a sense of arrogance with the Win 8 management to force all developers to switch to the metro model even through many of us pointed out why the model was flawed and unsuitable as a replacement for the Win32 based desktop API. 
 
I think its fortunate that the new management realized this mistake and changed course. You can't blindly stay the course and expect success when the vision is flawed :) I don't see it as caving but as understanding a mistake and taking proper steps to rectify it. 

Noel,

Sigh. Yeah, management certainly seemed to think they had a lot more than what was actually there. Many of us expected to see WinRT continue to evolve into a real competitor to iOS and Android from the disappointingly stripped down version that was shipped, and we certainly didn't expect that Metro would be positioned to partners as a viable replacement for the desktop model. It wasn't ready for that in the first case, and in a great many scenarios it wasn't appropriate for that in the second. And yeah, I certainly saw the uneasy relationship between metro and desktop and was very hopeful that a more elegant UI framework would evolve to help them coexist more comfortably.
 
But --
Surface showed just how game-changing the metro idea could really be, and I can only imagine the kinds of things you guys at Sonar could do if WinRT had a great threading and async capability coupled with a thouroughly modern and highly capable audio and MIDI foundation. I love my Surface and I love Metro on the Surface, and my great fear is that they'll throw the really great things out in a mad scramble to put the mistakes of the past behind them.

kitekrazy1
I've noticed a lot of FW Sapphires going on sale. I wonder if those will be future doorstops.  The latest Focusrite FW units will work with a Thunderbolt adapter.
I hope you take this up with Focusrite support.  My list of bo not buy hardware vendors gets longer. If I could do it all over again it would be nothing but RME and possibly Focusrite.
I have an old Intel machine that has onboard FW. That use to be a standard on Intlel boards.  I still have an AMD system with FW that's a VIA chipset and never had a problem with that.  

My MOTU 8pre (FW) is getting a little long in the tooth and I'm eyeing USB interfaces as we speak given that FW is a languishing technology, not to mention something of a pain. I'm still wondering why thunderbolt is so all that compared to USB but an willing to be convinced.

stxx
I went to 10 and stayed for under and after an hour went back to 7 (which to my surprise both the upgrade to 10 AND the revert back worked perfectly!)    First, the Firewire controller and drivers would not load.   I have FW 1884 that uses legacy FW driver and that would be come up.   There are fixes out there that I looked up but I just didn;t want to go through that.   Also, some of my plugin's stopped working or wouldn't load correctly and since everything really was working perfectly on 7 and I started to panic and get an anxiety attack, I went back to 7 which I think is awesome anyway.   I had told myself awhile ago,  if it ain't broke, don't fix it so why I went to it 10 in the first place really is beyond me.    Someone also had posted some SONAR performance comparisons between 7 and 10 and there really was not any major compelling data to really support a move.   As for Windows support, I have NEVER in the now 20 some odd years of using Windows (since 3.1) ever call Microsoft for support so the fact that at some point, likely MANY years away, when Win 7 goes out of lifecycle, whatever is wrong will likely have a solution out there in some knowledge base or forum and I still won't ever need to call them.  
 
Latest song fro my latest CD release coming up:
http://allenlind.com/bugs..2015/01%20Track%201.mp3

 
 
I think you did the right thing going back to 7 given the driver and plugin issues you encountered. MS did a really good job making 10 a painless upgrade and even sunk quite a bit of effort making it easy to undo if problems cropped up. I'd hold off until all my critical vendors provide clear Windows 10 guidance. If I had that in hand though, I'd make the move for sure, particularly if I had a multi-processor machine.

Doktor Avalanche

Skyline_UK
I upgraded my laptop from 7 to 10 yesterday. Text characters are now blurry. A search on the net shows this to be a major problem experienced by many. No solutions seem to be available and MSoft aren't fessing up. There's no way I'm going to risk upgrading my desktop DAW until this is fixed; it would be a disaster for the small detail in Sonar and audio apps etc.

Drivers again...
I am guessing you have an nvidia adapter, what's supplied with Windows 10 here is generally sub optimal. Simply visit nvidias web site and do a clean install of the latest driver for your display adapter. Then reboot. If issue still persists afterwards go to nvidia control panel and adjust the resolution to the max for each monitor.
 
Or do something similar with ATI or whatever...
Should fix it...

No, it's not the drivers. It's apparently a MSoft change to make text appear clearer on mobile devices and 4k monitors. Typical of the geeks who inhabit MSoft they believe that all laptop and desktop users  (millions of business and public sector organisations included...) should abandon them and  instead throw themselves into bean bags with whizzy tablets and iPhones in order to do their work. Morons.
 
Also,
(1) W10 failed to transfer the two standard (HP and Lexmark) network printers I have - it couldn't find ANYTHING on my home network, even when I placed my laptop right next to them!
(2) My mouse arrow also slid and floated anywhere it wished.
(3) I haven't found a SINGLE new feature, app or whatever in W10 that was of any use.
 
So, last night I rolled back to W7. Now, the best thing about W10 is how easy it is to roll back to W7 - ten minutes.
I now have my crisp fonts back as well as my printer corrections.
W7 is where I'm staying. I'm just glad I did this nightmare experiment on my laptop and not my desktop DAW.
 
 

A quick goggle gives more info on these 'blurry' fonts:
http://www.tenforums.com/.../7423-blurry-text.html