neiby
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 10:42:10
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EDIT: Followed Noel's wonderful advice and deleted on off-topic post that really didn't belong here.
post edited by neiby - 2011/01/26 10:45:38
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 10:42:57
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Hi Folks,
We do understand that this feature is important to some user workflows. Over the years we have worked on making various operations "gap" free . I acknowledge that we still have areas that we can improve on. Some are relatively straightforward and some are not. Like anything else the work involved for this gets prioritized along with other features and user requests some of which are more pressing than this area.
There are some operations that are pretty seamless today - e.g. inserting most plugins, moving clips, tracks etc. Some aren't such as changing the tempo map. I'm curious which edit operations you currently have problems with, are the most important to be gapless for your workflow. Disclaimer: I am not soliciting information for X1B - there is absolutely no time to do anything related in this timeframe. At this time I'm more interested in understanding the workflow in which you encounter such problems. Perhaps there are areas that we aren't aware of that shouldn't be doing this, etc. Thanks and please keep comments focussed on this topic.
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UnderTow
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 10:51:32
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Hi Noel, thanks for chiming in.
I think my post on the previous page sums up my views. Anything not related to changing the audio engine state should be gapless.
Personally the biggest annoyance comes from gapping when editing MIDI or changing the loop points.
UnderTow
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 11:01:39
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Yes were aware of the loop point gap and agree it isn't ideal. That one has been a harder nut to crack due to various factors that have little to do with the audio engine itself. When you speak of MIDI editing which specific operations are you encountering interruptions? i.e. editing MIDI notes themselves does not gap.
My intent is to hopefully arrive at a prioritized list of operations that users rely on in normal workflow to NOT gap. i.e not just nice to have features. That way any effort can be put into things that matter most.
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Jonbouy
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 11:14:39
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Noel For me personally it is mostly to do with changing loop points on the fly, and the now marker resetting back to the beginning of the loop each time each time a loop point is adjusted (Rewire)
post edited by Jonbouy - 2011/01/26 11:15:45
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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submarin
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 11:19:08
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- Metronome
- Inserting vst´i is causing crackling..
i7 4770, 32 GB Ram, W8.1 64bit, RME Digiface, 3x RME Adi DS, Uad2 Quad, , Sonar Platinum, Cubase 8 pro, Reaper , Ableton Live www.m2-productions.com
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Music Miscreant
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 11:35:50
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Without a stable audio engine varispeed remains a dream. Ah, varispeed.
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UnderTow
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 11:50:53
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk
]
Yes were aware of the loop point gap and agree it isn't ideal. That one has been a harder nut to crack due to various factors that have little to do with the audio engine itself. When you speak of MIDI editing which specific operations are you encountering interruptions? i.e. editing MIDI notes themselves does not gap.
It is mainly but not restricted to editing MIDI clips rather than MIDI notes. Like deleting a clip in the Track View. Sometimes trimming the length of a MIDI clip will do it. Sometimes the actual edit itself won't cause a glitch but quickly doing CTRL+Z to undo the edit will cause a glitch. This type of thing might be related to whatever is causing the gapping when changing loop points. The reason I say this is because it can happen when editing MIDI clips on a frozen track. (Which I would assume doesn't affect the audio engine state in any way). Maybe it has more to do with interference of the graphics engine and the audio engine but this is all speculation on my part. About editing MIDI notes, this can also cause glitching or even stopping of the audio engine. Try loading a heavy project and create a small MIDI clip (let's say one measure long) and copying it many times. (Like you might have when copying a bassline in a dance track). Now open the PRV and select some notes. Delete them and then hit CTRL-Z. Do this a few times quickly in succession and usually it will cause glitching or an engine stop. (Presumably this is more sensitive as it affects many copies of the clip). Hopefully this should give you something to work with when you get round to looking at this issue. If you need more info, feel free to ask. UnderTow
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ba_midi
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 12:07:43
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UnderTow
I think it is important to differentiate between different causes of gapping. There is the gapping caused by a change of state of the audio engine. By that I mean things like changing the routing, adding or removing FX plugins, adding or removing Instruments, adding or removing tracks or busses. There is also gapping caused by things that should not affect the state of the audio engine. By that I mean things like editing audio or MIDI clips. Changing loop points. Saving the project etc.
A small gap caused by an audio engine state change like when adding a heavy plugin to an already heavy project is relatively benign as far as I am concerned. Of course if Cakewalk can somehow prevent this or minimise it then so much the better. On the other hand a gap caused by anything that doesn't change the audio engine's state like changing the loop points or saving is utterly unacceptable in a modern DAW as far as I am concerned.
First there is the technical aspect: I think that a well designed DAW shouldn't need to glitch when doing anything that doesn't affect the audio engine directly. If things are properly prioritised, the audio engine should always get all the necessary resources to perform it's work. Everything else should be subordinate to this.
Secondly there is the experience of the user: If you are performing a task that affects the state of the audio engine, you will more or less expect an audio glitch. If you are working in an analogue studio, you will expect a glitch when you plug or unplug a piece of equipment (and will probably mute or dim your monitoring before you do it) but when you are just editing a MIDI clip, changing loop points or simply saving the project, you do not expect the audio to be affected and the glitch always comes as a hard jarring that snaps you out of the creative flow not to mention an annoying auditory experience.
I really think that after X1b comes out (I don't expect a fix for gapping in this version) the development team should first and foremost focus their attention on the audio engine. There really is no point in spending resources on anything else in Sonar until this works because they have to make sure that anything else they change will not affect the audio engine once it is fixed. There is no point in continuing any development if the base of the software is broken.
Fixing the audio engine in Sonar really should be priority number one at Cakewalk if they want to be taken seriously in the music industry. This should not be a paying upgrade. Don't push this back to X2 (or even further). Cakewalk promised a gappless audio engine in Sonar 3. It is about time they delivered on their promise.
UnderTow
Very well said, UT. And I agree with most of it. I'm not sure CW's main target is the "music industry" as much as it probably is the "hobbyist" since there are probably more sales to be gleaned from hobbyists. Let's not forget that PT still has the lion's share fo the "music-industry". But as you've notice, gapless audio is not important to everyone (for some reason). This is one reason it may not be important (enough) to CW either - even though all their competitors have mostly gapless audio. But you've highlighted areas that certainly can be improved upon (ie, various 'states' as example) and I would hope some of this is addressed. I just don't have big hopes of it happening anytime soon. While I have a hard time imagining why someone wouldn't want gapless audio (as gapless as possible, that is), I do accept there are those who simply don't care.
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ba_midi
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 12:08:32
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Scott Lee
He apparently mixed up gapless with CAPLESS.
What a good Samaritan.
Best,
LOL!
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ba_midi
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 12:16:11
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk
]
Yes were aware of the loop point gap and agree it isn't ideal. That one has been a harder nut to crack due to various factors that have little to do with the audio engine itself. When you speak of MIDI editing which specific operations are you encountering interruptions? i.e. editing MIDI notes themselves does not gap.
My intent is to hopefully arrive at a prioritized list of operations that users rely on in normal workflow to NOT gap. i.e not just nice to have features. That way any effort can be put into things that matter most.
Regarding changing/setting loop points, I always wondered why if I change the starting point, but the now time is still not at the end of the loop point, why Sonar can't recalculate before it restarts the loop so that it wouldn't have to gap just because I changed the start. I don't know if I explained that clearly but hopefully it made sense. I don't know the logistics involved in doing so, but it seems to me there are areas that could at least be less gapping, if not gapless. I would also add that inserting plugins is one of the most gapping areas - especially plugins like Kontakt, Maschine, etc. I do understand there are difficult 'under the hood' technicalities to be dealt with, but most of us are using pretty good systems these days and other hosts do accomplish this - so it'd be great if Sonar managed this better as well.
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dappa1
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 12:20:23
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Start, stopping  start, stopping start, work, stop ahhh! 
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Dave Modisette
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 12:34:44
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But as you've notice, gapless audio is not important to everyone (for some reason). This is one reason it may not be important (enough) to CW either - even though all their competitors have mostly gapless audio.
I don't think that importance is the factor. I don't think they can do it (to the point that some users demand). Maybe it's because of the way the product is coded, legacy compatibility issues, resources, whatever. They've had some pretty good developers over the last 10 years and they couldn't get it done and by all indications (from what I've read), they tried to do it.
post edited by Mod Bod - 2011/01/26 12:37:47
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ba_midi
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 12:39:19
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Mod Bod
But as you've notice, gapless audio is not important to everyone (for some reason). This is one reason it may not be important (enough) to CW either - even though all their competitors have mostly gapless audio.
I don't think that importance is the factor. I don't think they can do it. Maybe it's because of the way the product is coded, legacy compatibility issues, resources, whatever.
They've had some pretty good developers over the last 10 years and they couldn't get it done and by all indications (from what I've read), they tried to do it.
Well maybe it has to do with the backward compatibility code needs, etc -- I don't really know; but I doubt it's because they don't have the skills. It's easy to expect there would be some pretty deep modifications needed, so maybe they just haven't had the stomach to dig in there, so to speak. But it's all speculation anyway. They either can't, will, or won't.
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nprime
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 13:24:12
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Noel, I have to ask you (or any of the team) if you have ever spent any time at all using Ableton Live to create audio loops? I always wonder about that, whether or not the staff at CW actually spend time with other programs, or do you just see them demo'd at NAMM and that's it? I could explain what it is that is so cool about the way you create loops in that program, but it would easier for you to see it being done. Adjust start and stop times, slide the loop around on the timeline, all without any hiccups from the engine, and it all stays in time with the rest of the music. Oh, it is not just the looping, I can't think of anything I can do in that program that stops the audio or causes it to glitch. Arm/Enter record on the fly is very important for me. Insert and adjust plugs, create routing, edit MIDI, you name it and Live can do it all without any interruption to the playback. Once you have experienced this you cannot go back. From a creative standpoint, this is how it needs to be for me. I realize that my workflow is not representative of everyone...if you use Sonar like a linear tape deck then maybe none of these things matter. I waiting for everyone to tell me to stop talking about Live's looping capabilities, but it is a huge deal for me and the way I work. With Live I get songs written, with Sonar I spend all the time trying to make the program do what I want, and it seems to fight me all the way. I can't count how many times I just plain gave up when Sonar frustrated me to the point of killing my creative flow. I promise this will be the last time I bring this up. 
Listen Sonar 5PE Intel DP35DP, E6750, 3 GB, 80GB/320 GB Scope (6 DSP) w/A16 interface PadKontrol, Legacy Series MS20, EZDrummer.
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ba_midi
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 13:34:57
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nprime
Noel, I have to ask you (or any of the team) if you have ever spent any time at all using Ableton Live to create audio loops? I always wonder about that, whether or not the staff at CW actually spend time with other programs, or do you just see them demo'd at NAMM and that's it?
I could explain what it is that is so cool about the way you create loops in that program, but it would easier for you to see it being done. Adjust start and stop times, slide the loop around on the timeline, all without any hiccups from the engine, and it all stays in time with the rest of the music.
Oh, it is not just the looping, I can't think of anything I can do in that program that stops the audio or causes it to glitch. Arm/Enter record on the fly is very important for me. Insert and adjust plugs, create routing, edit MIDI, you name it and Live can do it all without any interruption to the playback.
Once you have experienced this you cannot go back. From a creative standpoint, this is how it needs to be for me. I realize that my workflow is not representative of everyone...if you use Sonar like a linear tape deck then maybe none of these things matter.
I waiting for everyone to tell me to stop talking about Live's looping capabilities, but it is a huge deal for me and the way I work. With Live I get songs written, with Sonar I spend all the time trying to make the program do what I want, and it seems to fight me all the way. I can't count how many times I just plain gave up when Sonar frustrated me to the point of killing my creative flow.
I promise this will be the last time I bring this up.
I'm with you all the way on this one ... someone really has to know/use LIVE to understand how smooth it is (audio engine). But this is another reason I would love to see CW invest more energy into The Matrix as well. IF there was a smooth audio engine and a solid Matrix, as I've said many times, Sonar would be killer. It would be hard to beat it as it would cover both the linear and non-linear users' needs. While talking about the Matrix is not exactly about "gapless audio", it does have to do with audio engine (things being sample accurate, for example) - so I don't think it's off topic.
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dappa1
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 13:42:37
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Bring it up like vomit (i'm only bugging ) I can't wait for the Demo of X1 Even with the poor calls out (Cakewalk being called out on this one) I think it has the makings of an excellent Door! Dream Of Our Return (to form). It won't be long...for me this will be the update for me, I am wating with baited breath and I will most probably upgrade to X1 Pro. It looks fun to use plus it has all the similarities of Many other DAWs. I wonder who the market is? I say this because it looks like the Market is changing and it has to change for Cakie Babie to stay somewhere near the top! Many people are crossing over and they are used to some slick moves by the opposition and if its not there then hey! Another one bites the dust! In all fairness to cake and i think we have been hard on them but if you do not say to potentially the best footballer you need a good kick up the bumchies, He will never reach his potential. Cake can no longer depend on what slice of the cake to take care of there financial market, they need strands. so yes, recording on the fly, is basically customary in most DAWs and it is time to come up to PAR this is what most serious producers expect seemless work flow. I am glad that Cakie Babie have looked in and are seriously assessing here they need to be, it may upset some people. But the Dinosaurs have to die one day you can't keep feeding them the same ole same ole. Change is Inevitible!
post edited by Dappa1 - 2011/01/26 13:46:11
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ba_midi
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 13:44:13
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We're suppose to stay on topic LOL
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dappa1
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 14:01:41
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Tell that to my fingers
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ba_midi
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 14:22:02
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Dappa1
Tell that to my fingers
Haha
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 14:30:08
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nprime
Noel, I have to ask you (or any of the team) if you have ever spent any time at all using Ableton Live to create audio loops? I always wonder about that, whether or not the staff at CW actually spend time with other programs, or do you just see them demo'd at NAMM and that's it?
To answer the question directly - yes we spend time with other programs and regularly interject things we like in these applications as examples of possible implementations or better ways of doing things. It wouldn't do any of us any good to go forward with blinders on and being musicians ourselves we're bound to be curious.
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 14:48:53
(permalink)
Noel, I have to ask you (or any of the team) if you have ever spent any time at all using Ableton Live to create audio loops? I always wonder about that, whether or not the staff at CW actually spend time with other programs, or do you just see them demo'd at NAMM and that's it? I could explain what it is that is so cool about the way you create loops in that program, but it would easier for you to see it being done. Adjust start and stop times, slide the loop around on the timeline, all without any hiccups from the engine, and it all stays in time with the rest of the music. My point of asking about it wasn't to assess whether this was useful for some user workflows. Thats not a question at all and we know that for some workflows its super important - the loop based workflow is certainly one of them. Its to find out which specific operations people are expecting to be gapless which aren't. And regarding whether we use other software - keep in mind that many if not most of the people who work at cakewalk are musicians just like you folks. We have product managers, developers and other employees who all use other products in addition to SONAR.
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tarsier
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 14:55:53
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There are some operations that are pretty seamless today - e.g. inserting most plugins, moving clips, tracks etc.
I sometimes get a click or pop or short buzz when moving a clip or slip editing a clip by even a small amount--I would certainly expect those operations to be gap/glitch free. I've just been muttering about it under my breath and pressing on, but if you're saying that in-house those operations are "pretty seamless" then I guess I've got some sleuthing to do. If I can uncover a repeatable recipe, I'll certainly send it your way.
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himalaya
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 15:06:17
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Its to find out which specific operations people are expecting to be gapless which aren't.
Applying fade in/out to an audio clip ( by grabing the fade envelope) during playback can stop the audio engine on my laptop: Core 2 Duo, 1.8Ghz, 3GB RAM, 512 MB ATI Mobility Radeon, Echo Indigo I/O soundcard. Clean DPC report.
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neiby
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 15:07:49
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himalaya
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Its to find out which specific operations people are expecting to be gapless which aren't.
Applying fade in/out to an audio clip ( by grabing the fade envelope) during playback can stop the audio engine on my laptop: Core 2 Duo, 1.8Ghz, 3GB RAM, 512 MB ATI Mobility Radeon, Echo Indigo I/O soundcard. Clean DPC report.
Come to think of it, I've only had one X1 crash and I think that was what I was doing at the time.
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Guest
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 15:33:49
(permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk
]
Noel, I have to ask you (or any of the team) if you have ever spent any time at all using Ableton Live to create audio loops? I always wonder about that, whether or not the staff at CW actually spend time with other programs, or do you just see them demo'd at NAMM and that's it? I could explain what it is that is so cool about the way you create loops in that program, but it would easier for you to see it being done. Adjust start and stop times, slide the loop around on the timeline, all without any hiccups from the engine, and it all stays in time with the rest of the music.
My point of asking about it wasn't to assess whether this was useful for some user workflows. Thats not a question at all and we know that for some workflows its super important - the loop based workflow is certainly one of them. Its to find out which specific operations people are expecting to be gapless which aren't.
And regarding whether we use other software - keep in mind that many if not most of the people who work at cakewalk are musicians just like you folks. We have product managers, developers and other employees who all use other products in addition to SONAR.
Once you hit play or record the audio engine should not stop for anything short of computer failure. Most audio engines don't, Sonar does. Removing muted clips from memory would help. Logic has always done this.
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kb420
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 15:38:32
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk
]
Its to find out which specific operations people are expecting to be gapless which aren't.
Would it be too much to ask that every function be gapless? 
"Now, excuse me while I jump into my Jaguar; I need to board my private jet for the usual weekend trip to my mansion on the Big Island. I think Trixie, Crystal, and Heather are already there...must not keep them waiting in the hot tub!" -Craig Anderton-
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djjhart@aol.com
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 15:52:17
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One day I like to use sonar Live ...load up the matrix with loops ,one hits , full length tracks and just go to work without any disruption ... If Sonar can achieve this , I will come to Boston and buy the whole staff dunkin donuts. And gladly pay for it as an update.
Computer - Intel Q9550, Intel BX48bt2 MB, W8 64 bit. 8 gb Ram, SSD Hardware - Tascam Fw1884 Control surface only, Ni S49 Komplete Kontroll,Roland Quad Capture, Ni Machine,Kore, Focusrite A/D converter, Blue Mic, Roland Gaia, Akai Mpk49, Yamaha HS80 Monitors.Software - Sonar Platinum , Vengeance VPS bundle,Sugar Bytes Effectrix, Turnado, NI Komplete 10 Ultimate, Dune, Rob Papen Blade , Delay, Punch Evolved. http://soundcloud.com/johnhartson/tracks http://www.youtube.com/user/jhart1313
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 16:13:46
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Once you hit play or record the audio engine should not stop for anything short of computer failure. Most audio engines don't, Sonar does. Sorry that isn't a very constructive or informational response to my question. Its also misinformed - *all* software will potentially have cases which will interrupt audio or general playback. The data I'm trying to collect are the operations people rely on. Those are the only cases we need to focus on and not waste resources fixing things that don't require fixing.
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 16:18:48
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timboe
Sonething I have always been quite jealous of with my Live [ and now S1 ] colleagues is their Gapless Audio Engine - it feels incredibly liberating to just keep the engine / song playing whilst you do [ virtually ] anything to it
Thx,
Tim
Isn't this contingent on the processing system someone is using if Gapless Audio will be pertinent...
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