FastBikerBoy
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 18:36:20
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Dappa1
Has anyone mentioned being able to press record whilst the "audio engine is running".No I am not talking about punch in punch out. RECORD!
ps does this initiate anyway?
Record on the fly works for me on what is supposedly an under-powered machine. (Specs in sig) I do it all the time, dropping in and out (recording that is not the engine) on the fly. I don't think it has ever stopped for me under those conditions. Neither does arming a track, although I don't do that very often.
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kb420
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 18:38:08
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Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
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I think we should all be clear in these cases as to whether we are taking about the engine stuttering for a second when performing an operation or whether we are talking about actual drop outs where the engine stops completely.
Brandon, with all due respect, I don't think it matters either way. Either case is unacceptable.
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 18:39:00
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10Ten
Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
I think we should all be clear in these cases as to whether we are taking about the engine stuttering for a second when performing an operation or whether we are talking about actual drop outs where the engine stops completely.
I'm talking about dropouts.
That's what I've suspected from reading many of your posts. I can't help but feel like you get a hell of a lot more drop outs than you should. I mean I can edit, add effects, synths, etc and I do get a stutter here and there, but I don't get actual dropouts unless the system is already heavily taxed. I run at around 2ms and do a fair amount of operations while the engine is running. Does it stutter, yes...but I don't often get dropout alerts unless I have a ton going on. Not saying things can't be improved but i can't help feeling that you are seeing a worse case scenario somehow. I have seen systems that exhibit this behavior but they usually have some inherent problem with either the disk or video subsystem. Not sure how many machines you run SONAR on but if it is more than one I'd be curious if they all exhibit the same behavior.
post edited by Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk] - 2011/01/26 18:43:18
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dappa1
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 18:39:20
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How about simply just being able to allow Sonar to function whilst playing you know like click on parts delete reshuffle your clips click from TV to PRV. record...where I am coming from Punch in punch out serves in a different context or where u are honing in a paricular part that needs adjusting.
Recording on the fly to save inspiration is where I am at here some people feel the music and a flash of lightening occurs and you want to get that bit down while its playing then hey presto its done!
Punch in punch out does not allow for that doesn't...I wonder why so many people seem to be against this type of working does your inspiration take a geography class to reach to the destination. Just Asking?
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 18:39:57
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10Ten
Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
I think we should all be clear in these cases as to whether we are taking about the engine stuttering for a second when performing an operation or whether we are talking about actual drop outs where the engine stops completely.
I'm talking about dropouts.
Yep dropouts. TBH I hardly ever get stutters. It either keeps going or stops. OMG 10Ten. We've agreed on something twice in the same thread. We'll be having group hugs next...... well maybe not. 
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dappa1
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 18:41:10
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I used to run a Compaq with an intel Celeron (ok I hear the laughter and see the eyes welling up) sorry thats just me...and I could do all that you say you can on that system with CUB...I mean another DAW
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kb420
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 18:41:21
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Once again Brandon, with all due respect, either case is unacceptable. I truly believe that it doesn't matter if the engine stops or stutters, the users want the engine to continue to run smoothly no matter what they are doing.
"Now, excuse me while I jump into my Jaguar; I need to board my private jet for the usual weekend trip to my mansion on the Big Island. I think Trixie, Crystal, and Heather are already there...must not keep them waiting in the hot tub!" -Craig Anderton-
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 18:42:25
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kb420
Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
I think we should all be clear in these cases as to whether we are taking about the engine stuttering for a second when performing an operation or whether we are talking about actual drop outs where the engine stops completely.
Brandon, with all due respect, I don't think it matters either way. Either case is unacceptable.
It absolutely does matter as they have to be approached differently. Stutters and gaps happen pretty much the same way on all systems. But actual audio engine dropouts are another matter and can often be remedied through system tweaks or changes. This isn't an attempt o "explain way" one or the other or spin one as being acceptable or not. It's a matter of gapping and dropouts being two different things. It's helpful for us to know which we are talking about in a particular case.
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VigilantSound
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 18:42:29
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Dappa, as i said before, i can do all of what you describe with out stoping..
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 18:44:18
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kb420
Once again Brandon, with all due respect, either case is unacceptable. I truly believe that it doesn't matter if the engine stops or stutters, the users want the engine to continue to run smoothly no matter what they are doing.
See my previous reply. It's not about what's acceptable or not...it's about defining the behavior of problems.
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dappa1
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 18:46:18
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No need to worry about the audio engine then Vigilant, it works flawlessly....
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VigilantSound
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 18:47:46
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Brandon, im thinkin dropouts.. is that not what we are talkin about?
Stutters dont bother me asmuch as long as they dont end up on the track being recorded or inthe performers head phones...
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kb420
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 18:49:48
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Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
kb420
Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
I think we should all be clear in these cases as to whether we are taking about the engine stuttering for a second when performing an operation or whether we are talking about actual drop outs where the engine stops completely.
Brandon, with all due respect, I don't think it matters either way. Either case is unacceptable.
It absolutely does matter as they have to be approached differently. Stutters and gaps happen pretty much the same way on all systems. But actual audio engine dropouts are another matter and can often be remedied through system tweaks or changes. This isn't an attempt o "explain way" one or the other or spin one as being acceptable or not. It's a matter of gapping and dropouts being two different things. It's helpful for us to know which we are talking about in a particular case.
Brandon, please bear with me as I am no computer programmer or code writer. I'm simply a wanna be musician. That being said, I don't care what I do in Live, the engine never stops running smoothly. Sometimes the graphics may freeze when I open a vst, but the audio never stops or drops out. I can drag in a vst, which automatically opens a new instrument track, arm the new track for record, record the midi data, and disarm the track all without stopping the engine or the engine ever dropping out. I read a lot of posts on this thread referring to how smooth Live's engine is, and I believe that is exactly the type of functionality that they want in Sonar. There isn't really anything that you do in Live that requires the engine to ever stop or have dropouts.
post edited by kb420 - 2011/01/26 18:51:57
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UnderTow
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 18:55:25
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Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
I think we should all be clear in these cases as to whether we are taking about the engine stuttering for a second when performing an operation or whether we are talking about actual drop outs where the engine stops completely.
Mainly just audio gaps or glitches but sometimes full drop-outs that stop playback. When I call Cubase's audio engine rock solid I mean that there are no audible glitches or gaps whatsoever when changing loop points, saving the project or any form of editing during playback. This also with large projects with a 100 tracks or so and many soft synths and plugins etc. That is what I would like to experience in Sonar. BTW, for testing and debugging purposes, if I may give a tip, set the latency of the sound card of the test computer as high as possible. It will make any gapping or glitching more obvious. (This might also hint at the source of the problem if you don't already know). UnderTow PS: Live and Sutdio One go one further: They don't even gap or glitch when changing what I described previously as Audio Engine State changes (correctly or not).
post edited by UnderTow - 2011/01/26 19:00:25
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 18:56:31
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kb420
Brandon, please bear with me as I am no computer programmer or code writer. I'm simply a wanna be musician. That being said, I don't care what I do in Live, the engine never stops running smoothly. Sometimes the graphics may freeze when I open a vst, but the audio never stops or drops out. I can drag in a vst, which automatically opens a new instrument track, arm the new track for record, record the midi data, and disarm the track all without stopping the engine or the engine ever dropping out. I read a lot of posts on this thread referring to how smooth Live's engine is, and I believe that is exactly the type of functionality that they want in Sonar.
There isn't really anything that you do in Live that requires the engine to ever stop or have dropouts.
No I totally understand where you're coming from and rest assured we know how Live works in this regard.
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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dappa1
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 19:00:23
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Cant live be emulated in this regard?
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VigilantSound
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 19:03:46
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Live always drops out for me, i cant get live to play a single track without crackles and pops.... in my experience sonar is much more solid.. But Ive never had a full version of live, i only own an LE version, but it should the same audio engine... That's what you have to understand most the time its a combo of hardware and software causing the problems....
post edited by VigilantSound - 2011/01/27 12:10:26
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dappa1
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 19:05:57
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Vigilant...I think your making stuff up as you go along.
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ba_midi
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 21:33:13
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Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
I think we should all be clear in these cases as to whether we are taking about the engine stuttering for a second when performing an operation or whether we are talking about actual drop outs where the engine stops completely.
There are times when doing the exact same operation will cause either one of those things to happen. So that's tricky. Example: inserting some synth may only cause a pause/stutter whereas inserting some other synth will cause a dropout. I don't think it should matter which synth it is - as other hosts don't stutter or dropout in either case.
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himalaya
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 22:03:21
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Just now...I was working on a project and tried to grab the fade envelope on an audio clip, when the playback stopped = a drop out. Then, a while later, the same edit on another clip, and there was no drop out. It's random but annoying none-the-less.
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panup
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 22:15:50
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himalaya
Just now...I was working on a project and tried to grab the fade envelope on an audio clip, when the playback stopped = a drop out. Then, a while later, the same edit on another clip, and there was no drop out. It's random but annoying none-the-less.
Same here. Exactly the same.
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Danny Danzi
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 22:19:00
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FastBikerBoy
In answer to your question Noel...............
I'd like to be able to.........
Turn effects on & off, both singularly and using the global effects button.
Slip edit clips
Change loop times
and of course change screensets.......
That's not to say it always drops out doing these, but it does from time to time. The worst offender for me is the effects on/off and loop time changes.
Same here FBB. I don't use loops much, but the effects giving me stutters or slight pauses if you will, would be so much better if they were seemless. When I master something using Sonar anf click on that global kill, it would be great to hear a seemless change-over without the pause. Some of my UAD plugs pause Sonar or drop it out when bringing them into the bin or by just bypassing/enabling them. I've got a killer system that barely goes over 10% cpu no matter what project I have up. ASIO for mixing is set for 4096. Sometimes when I start playback on a file that has been slip edited or volume automated, the audio is not there at first. I have to start playback further back. I don't know if this is audio engine, automation or whatever, but it's a definite pause/glitch in audio that has always bothered me. My big concern is how the audio engine will shut off if Sonar is not the main window focus. Sometimes when I'm on the road, I use a little program on my laptop called Bomes Midi piano. It allows you to use the keyboard you type on to capture midi. When Bomes is my focus point, the audio engine will not turn on and Bomes is set to "stay on top". I can't even preview my samples unless I do a dummy record and let it create a midi for me. So though this is probably an isolated case and all Bomes fault, I still would love an option to just keep the audio engine enabled unless I decide to kill it.
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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thomasabarnes
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 22:24:34
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Hi Noel: Two things important to me that I would like to have work in SONAR without experiencing gapping in playback are: 1) Adjusting Loop points during playback 2) Inserting SoftSynths during playback. Currently, attempting any of the above causes playback to stutter for a bit before resuming smoothly. Thanks in advance for any help in the matter. :)
post edited by thomasabarnes - 2011/01/26 22:26:22
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hbb
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/26 22:38:18
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I always get stutter, glitch when Saving during playback. (if I nail an edit, I 'd like to be sure it's saved) Project size nor amount of plugins make no difference. Opening loop editor during playback always causes a glitch. Changing screensets with X1a also causes glitches. (The same project with layout selection assigned to hotkeys in 8.5.3 doesnt cause this. Re-draw is however sluggish)
post edited by hbb - 2011/01/26 22:40:54
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dontletmedrown
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 00:03:39
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Danny Danzi
Some of my UAD plugs pause Sonar or drop it out when bringing them into the bin or by just bypassing/enabling them. I've got a killer system that barely goes over 10% cpu no matter what project I have up. ASIO for mixing is set for 4096.
Sometimes when I start playback on a file that has been slip edited or volume automated, the audio is not there at first. I have to start playback further back. I don't know if this is audio engine, automation or whatever, but it's a definite pause/glitch in audio that has always bothered me. Danny, what you describe is exactly what I experienced with my UAD1 cards for almost a year. It was the reason I decided to completely ditch the UAD system. The plugins do sound fantastic, but tracks with UAD plugins dropping out (while I'm trying to dial EQ) then coming back in a few seconds later eventually drove me to the brink of insanity. I personally don't consider that a "drop out" per se (since the engine doesn't stop), it's something I've only experienced with UAD. In Sonar 8.5 without UAD, I do experience what the other guys are saying where I'll be running at 5% cpu and do a slip edit and the engine stops. Seconds later I'll do the same thing and it keeps chugging along-- no rhyme or reason-- sometimes it does it, sometimes not.
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timboe
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 04:38:16
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Hi Noel, Brandon, Seth [ & everyone else ]
Firstly, *really* great to see you guys dropping in to the forums.
Noel - regarding specifics about what we want gapless, the only sensible [ but simplistic ] way I can put it is as follows:-
- open X1
- open a new clean / empty project
- hit Play
- from here on in, I want everything to be gapless.
Whether it is an Audio Engine or Sequencer Engine issue - as user - we dont care.
I just want to be able to do everything involved in building / editing / recording / tracking / editing / looping /effecting / mixing / mastering etc.......... a song without an audio gap or stutter or [ obvioulsy ] a dropout.
I do appreciate that Live was written from the ground up to %99 be like this and that Sonar if a fuller-more-detailed-more-integtrated-hybrid program ...... but again ..... as a user ..... if Live can do it I dont understand / dont care what the technical issues may be ..... we just want it.
We know it is possible and do-able because other Programs already [ %99 ] do - LIve does it / S1 does it / Samp does t / even Cubase and Pro Tools do it better than Sonar currently does.
So ..... does this mean or involve a full-re-write of the Sonar " guts " ....... frankly ...... I dont know .... I have no idea ..... and I dont care ... I just know its possbile ...... others have and are doing it ..... and I have no idea why Sonar still doesnt have it given it was a [ non-acheived ] goal of [ I think ] Sonar 3 or Sonar 4 ....... so really ...... I accept it isnt on the cards for X1b ......... but I can see no reason why it wont be Sonar X2.
I hope I havent come across as too-blunt - I just wanted to explain where and why I am raising / pushing this issue.
Tim
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Scott Lee
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 05:17:55
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Aye Timboe. Its a competitive world out in DAW 2.0 land.
All the traditional sequencing applications have evolved, isn't it time for Sonar X1 to do the same to stay competitive?
Gapless should mean gapless regardless of function. Sure if you are running 50 tracks, we can be reasonable in thinking we are pushing the tech.. One or two tracks with audio dropouts or wobble/studdering is quite embarrassingly in front of a client.
Best Regards,
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Danny Danzi
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 06:39:23
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dontletmedrown
Danny Danzi
Some of my UAD plugs pause Sonar or drop it out when bringing them into the bin or by just bypassing/enabling them. I've got a killer system that barely goes over 10% cpu no matter what project I have up. ASIO for mixing is set for 4096.
Sometimes when I start playback on a file that has been slip edited or volume automated, the audio is not there at first. I have to start playback further back. I don't know if this is audio engine, automation or whatever, but it's a definite pause/glitch in audio that has always bothered me.
Danny, what you describe is exactly what I experienced with my UAD1 cards for almost a year. It was the reason I decided to completely ditch the UAD system. The plugins do sound fantastic, but tracks with UAD plugins dropping out (while I'm trying to dial EQ) then coming back in a few seconds later eventually drove me to the brink of insanity. I personally don't consider that a "drop out" per se (since the engine doesn't stop), it's something I've only experienced with UAD.
In Sonar 8.5 without UAD, I do experience what the other guys are saying where I'll be running at 5% cpu and do a slip edit and the engine stops. Seconds later I'll do the same thing and it keeps chugging along-- no rhyme or reason-- sometimes it does it, sometimes not.
Oh wow Dave, I thankfully don't get that. My issues are a bit different and maybe I didn't explain it right. If I bring certain UAD plugs in to my bin while audio is playing, sometimes I pause, sometimes I drop out. If I turn certain plugs off and on, sometimes it will just pause but won't drop out. If I hit that global effects bypass, I don't drop out but it pauses just enough to throw me off my listening and this I really hate the most. As for the drop-outs during eq dialing etc, that's one thing I have never gotten even with the early UAD 1 cards I was running. That sounds like some sort of issue between the card and your system I would think. But I've never gotten a drop or pause while working inside of a plug (other than the Sonar EQ 64 which pauses like mad) thank God. That would totally drive me nuts and I don't blame you one bit for ditching the UAD stuff. That's really a shame too because their newer stuff is really incredible. Did you ever try to UAD 2 card? I highly recommend it...some of the best plugs I've ever used.
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kb420
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 07:06:19
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timboe
Hi Noel, Brandon, Seth [ & everyone else ]
Firstly, *really* great to see you guys dropping in to the forums.
Noel - regarding specifics about what we want gapless, the only sensible [ but simplistic ] way I can put it is as follows:-
- open X1
- open a new clean / empty project
- hit Play
- from here on in, I want everything to be gapless.
Whether it is an Audio Engine or Sequencer Engine issue - as user - we dont care.
I just want to be able to do everything involved in building / editing / recording / tracking / editing / looping /effecting / mixing / mastering etc.......... a song without an audio gap or stutter or [ obvioulsy ] a dropout.
I do appreciate that Live was written from the ground up to %99 be like this and that Sonar if a fuller-more-detailed-more-integtrated-hybrid program ...... but again ..... as a user ..... if Live can do it I dont understand / dont care what the technical issues may be ..... we just want it.
We know it is possible and do-able because other Programs already [ %99 ] do - LIve does it / S1 does it / Samp does t / even Cubase and Pro Tools do it better than Sonar currently does.
So ..... does this mean or involve a full-re-write of the Sonar " guts " ....... frankly ...... I dont know .... I have no idea ..... and I dont care ... I just know its possbile ...... others have and are doing it ..... and I have no idea why Sonar still doesnt have it given it was a [ non-acheived ] goal of [ I think ] Sonar 3 or Sonar 4 ....... so really ...... I accept it isnt on the cards for X1b ......... but I can see no reason why it wont be Sonar X2.
I hope I havent come across as too-blunt - I just wanted to explain where and why I am raising / pushing this issue.
Tim
I agree with this 100%. When the question about which functions you as a user would want to be gapless, I replied that I want everything to be gapless. That's what I want. I want the engine to run as smooth as silk no matter what I'm doing. I know that they were being serious when they put the question out there, but I was absolutely serious when I replied.
"Now, excuse me while I jump into my Jaguar; I need to board my private jet for the usual weekend trip to my mansion on the Big Island. I think Trixie, Crystal, and Heather are already there...must not keep them waiting in the hot tub!" -Craig Anderton-
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Jonbouy
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 07:41:45
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I must admit by X1's workflow departure having given me a really good excuse to see how things are done on other DAWs especially the relatively new kids of Reaper and S1 I'm really impressed with how they have got audio to behave.
But for me at least the production process falls into two definite phases which is indicated after the track and sound creation phase where I want everything to be nimble, low latency and glitch free.
The second phase, indicated by the fact that latency doesn't matter anymore and the audio buffer sizes can go as big as needed to accommodate whatever big gun DSP trickery I want to throw at a project.
It is during this first phase that I find other programs are stealing the march and leaving Sonar in the dust.
It is during the second phase that I start finding the lack in some of the newer apps. and start to really appreciate the huge depth that Sonar offers.
What I find frustrating is what somebody here recently called a lack of fit and finish that Sonar definitely has. Those perennial issues that may not be deal breakers in themselves but manage to club together in order to get in the way of smooth working.
I know things have to be prioritised against human resources, time and financial considerations, but I get baffled by the priority some functionally lukewarm bolt-ons (think BeatScape) that have been introduced meantime take up, when attention to this 'fit and finish' as previously described would make the whole Sonar experience more pleasing for everybody.
I may be wrong but I don't think Noel would need me to spell out what many of those 'fit and finish' details are because I do not believe he is ignorant or unaware of the majority of the wide range of issues that fall into that category.
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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