gordonrussell76
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 08:28:15
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"We have a serious difference of opinion on that. You feel that it is somehow a privilege to have him here when he should be here and should be seeing what we think about a very serious issue. A company does not exist but for it's customers and a company benefits from listening to us"
Go on the cubase forum and see if you get anyone let alone the CTO to come into a thread, good luck.
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Jonbouy
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 08:39:40
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Go on the cubase forum and see if you get anyone let alone the CTO to come into a thread, good luck. Nothing on owl waxing or getting your otters successfully lathed either. Now that to me is a seriously lacking forum.
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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ProjectM
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 08:50:23
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Jonbouy
Go on the cubase forum and see if you get anyone let alone the CTO to come into a thread, good luck.
Nothing on owl waxing or getting your otters successfully lathed either.
Now that to me is a seriously lacking forum.
LOL
(Sonar Platinum - Win10 x64) - iMac and 13" MacBook - Logic Pro X ++ - UA Apollo Twin DUO - NI Maschine MKII - NI Komplete Kontrol S61 - Novation Nocturne - KRK Rokit 6 SoundcloudNegative Vibe Records
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Scott Lee
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 09:18:17
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Bring on the otters! 
post edited by Scott Lee - 2011/01/27 09:19:55
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UnderTow
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 09:26:58
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Scott Lee
Bring on the otters!
I think that is otterly off-topic! UnderTow
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HumbleNoise
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 09:42:57
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I've said this in other threads so I hope it doesn't come off as too repetitive but I'm going to assume that the sales of X1 have been pretty good and those sales have increased revenues and perhaps even profits for the company. Those profits. as we who are in business know. can be pretty elusive creatures and the investment needed to create X1 may be a long road to recover but let's say that X1 is generally a revenue generating, profitable project. (I'm getting there) So now, what do you do with the profits? Do you squirrel it away? Do you spread it among the investors and owners? Do you slow your investment dollars to increase those profits? Or do you plow it right back into X2, X2, X3, X4 and fix all the issues this thread has brought up? Some usability issues, for some individuals, will not be fixed, ever, in their eyes. That sucks for those few, but the major functional issues that affect all users, and where Sonar has fallen behind IMO must be fixed, like gap-less audio and a few other functions where Sonar lacks. I'm impatient by nature but I have a decent feeling that the bakers will get this right. But when? The gap-less audio train has left the station a long time ago and there's some serious catching up to do (in that department). Will those profits and revenues go into improving that feature? Or do the bakers have so many fresh new idea that some of those foundational features will be ignored (again) to implement those new features? If X1 has, for now, created a better platform for all those future changes as has been the official position of the company then the future looks pretty bright indeed. But it's tricky. X1b will tell a lot. X2 will show what changes we can really expect in the long term. For now though I really appreciate the participation of Brandon, Seth and Noel and there's no way that they're not hearing what's up loud and clear. Now let's see what becomes of Xxx. UT Awesome otter pic! I grew up with those little rascals in Monterey. Saw them when out surfing all the time.
post edited by HumbleNoise - 2011/01/27 09:44:27
Humbly Yours Larry Sonar X2 x64 MAudio 2496 Yamaha MG 12/4 Roland XV-88 Intel MB with Q6600 and 4 GB Ram NVidia 9800 GTX Windows 7 x64 Home Premium
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UnderTow
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 10:10:43
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HumbleNoise
For now though I really appreciate the participation of Brandon, Seth and Noel and there's no way that they're not hearing what's up loud and clear. Now let's see what becomes of Xxx.
Agreed! UT Awesome otter pic! I grew up with those little rascals in Monterey. Saw them when out surfing all the time.
Credit goes to Scott, not me!  UnderTow
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 11:23:42
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Thanks everyone for the constructive feedback. This is useful stuff.
The reason we need this is because this is not necessarily a black and white issue. Besides the more obvioius gap areas such as loop point adjustment, some of the problems being reported do not happen in general. As Brandon indicated he frequently edits live on stage with huge projects with no dropouts or obvious gaps. Now that doesn't mean that users are not running into those issues but we need to get to the bottom of what the root problem is. Often problems like this can occur only with certain types of projects and not others. If you are plagued with these issues this is almost sure to be the case. If so please help us get to the bottom of it by actually submitting a minimal project on which you can repro it. Sometimes that can be a catalyst to being able to reproduce and address the problem.
I hear this a lot "problem X doesn't happen in host Y" so it shouldn't happen in SONAR. While that is a valid observation in itself it does little to help developers address it. Sometimes especially in the case of plugin's the problem may actually be elsewhere. Before you get cynical on me - this is an irrefutable fact and I'm not trying to steer blame away from SONAR, since if we have a problem we obviously want to fix it. I have worked with numerous plugin vendors who cooperate with us and take ownership and fix their issues. And we do the same - we prioritize and fix application issues reported to us by plugin vendors as far as we can. On other occasions a problem may not show up in another host just because of innocuous differences in the way the host is implemented. Often a problem may even show up in a different version of the SAME host but not the earlier version. This doesn't always imply that the problem exists in the new version of the host - it could be a dormant problem that now gets exposed by some subtle difference in how the new host behaves. Anyway all this is a long winded way of saying problems like this are not always black and white. Though from a users perspective you want it fixed as developers we need to ask all these annoying questions before we can get to the problem. We don't always have the luxury of looking at and debugging your systems that exhibit the problems.
Finally to clarify the engine needs fixing topic, as a user its not necessarily an important distinction, but it can muddy the problem in peoples mind so its worth clarifying a bit. For example in the case of the loop region gap, the same will happen even if you have a MIDI only project going to a hardware MIDI port. As such it has nothing to do with the audio engine.
Gaps and dropouts in a DAW mainly occur due to playback underrun issues. This happens when the stream of playback data cannot keep up to feed the driver's buffers. When this is detected, we dropout after a threshold (DropoutMsec ini setting). We force a dropout in such cases because otherwise you can get the infamous motorboating effect. This specific issue in turn can occur due to at least a few reasons.
- CPU overload or spikes in the system. (Even though your system has bandwidth a processing spike on one core can cause this).
- Operations that take too long to cook a buffers worth of data
- a bug in the program that interrupts the processing of a buffer too long.
- operations that currently cannot be performed in parallel with playback.
Based on the above when discussing such issues its generally more accurate to say that the program is not seamless when doing such operations rather than blaming it all on the audio engine :)
Sorry for the long winded reply but I hope it clarifies some things. We want to do our best to address issues that prevent you from working effectively.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 11:31:31
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Hi Noel,
Ask Brandon to put a instantiation of Perfect Space on the master bus for the next demo.
I don't have to do anything that extreme to reveal the gaps... but this will help you get to experience the issue for your self.
Thanks for taking a look at this issue.
best regards,
mike
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 11:47:10
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Noel,
One other thing to look at. Many of us run ASIO drivers and use the manual latency compensation in addition to the automatic compensation.
That's the extra additional few ms that is automatically reported in the Audio dialog that is not automatically added to the latency compensation.
Perhaps using that feature is related to many of us experiencing the gap? Perhaps the demonstrations are done without making use of this feature.
best regards,
mike
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 11:54:50
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VigilantSound
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 12:10:55
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Dappa1
Vigilant...I think your making stuff up as you go along.
Like What?
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VigilantSound
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 12:13:33
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Dappa1
No need to worry about the audio engine then Vigilant, it works flawlessly....
I never suggested this.. It does need work... However I see people posting issues Ive never had... Like being able to hit record while in playback, Ive always been able to do this and if you cant then you need to look at your setup...
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UnderTow
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 12:24:46
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk
]
I hear this a lot "problem X doesn't happen in host Y" so it shouldn't happen in SONAR. While that is a valid observation in itself it does little to help developers address it. Sometimes especially in the case of plugin's the problem may actually be elsewhere. Before you get cynical on me - this is an irrefutable fact and I'm not trying to steer blame away from SONAR, since if we have a problem we obviously want to fix it. I have worked with numerous plugin vendors who cooperate with us and take ownership and fix their issues. And we do the same - we prioritize and fix application issues reported to us by plugin vendors as far as we can. On other occasions a problem may not show up in another host just because of innocuous differences in the way the host is implemented. Often a problem may even show up in a different version of the SAME host but not the earlier version. This doesn't always imply that the problem exists in the new version of the host - it could be a dormant problem that now gets exposed by some subtle difference in how the new host behaves. Anyway all this is a long winded way of saying problems like this are not always black and white. Though from a users perspective you want it fixed as developers we need to ask all these annoying questions before we can get to the problem. We don't always have the luxury of looking at and debugging your systems that exhibit the problems.
I think you should contact the makers of Rapture and the Pro Channel then. ;-) Turning elements of the ProChannel on/off caused slight glitching when I tested it in a minimal project using less than 1% CPU. (Or so I would assume considering how informative the Performance Module in the Control Bar is  ). When I demonstrated that the Matrix view wasn't sample accurately synced to the Track View in another thread, I did that with Rapture. (This is a side issue but IMO part of seamless playback). So yes, your response does bring out the cynicism in me and frankly, what you wrote above IS steering the blame away from Sonar. There was no need to do that. There was no need to write all that. Just stick to the issue at hand and ask for specific info and feedback. Anything else comes over as needlessly defensive and blame avoidance. And seriously, "We don't always have the luxury of looking at and debugging your systems that exhibit the problems." is right out insulting. Sonar is broken. Don't blame the users. And I am very sorry to say but these problems really are quite black and white. Despite all of what you say above, many other hosts manage gappless and smooth playback with ALL plugins. Sonar manages it with NONE. So really, there are some major issues in Sonar's engine which clearly have nothing to do with how 3rd party plugins are implemented. If you can not reproduce the constant glitching that it seems nearly everyone experiences (and even Brandon acknowledges) then Cakewalk have a real problem. I will repeat my tip to increase your buffer sizes when testing. The larger the buffers, the more obvious the glitching is. (Which in itself might help you debug this). Based on the above when discussing such issues its generally more accurate to say that the program is not seamless when doing such operations rather than blaming it all on the audio engine :) Sure but you are not some low level code monkey writing HTML. You are the CTO of a technology company. Interpret the info being given to you. UnderTow
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djjhart@aol.com
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 13:03:01
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No disrespect , But I have tried Sonar along side my Traktor Pro in a live situation on an internet live radio show , needless to say Sonar did not preform well at all, I tried to use the matrix to run loops, without a sync or a real time nudge It was hard to get my loops to play in beat with traktor, I would have both tempos set at 128 and would have to nudge traktor forward or back wards to play on beat, I was able to use it but by no means was it flawless as Traktor or Abelton is , For me I like it if sonar could be as stable as abelton or traktor in the audio sense.. NOTE with either traktor or abelton the on board sound card works 100% better , And as far as Abelton is concerned ableton i'm aware was made as a live tool at first , but now it can do everything sonar can, Well almost everything and can still be able to play live without any problems.. I would never trust Sonar in a live situation in a night club for 5 hours straight not yet.
post edited by djjhart@aol.com - 2011/01/27 14:48:24
Computer - Intel Q9550, Intel BX48bt2 MB, W8 64 bit. 8 gb Ram, SSD Hardware - Tascam Fw1884 Control surface only, Ni S49 Komplete Kontroll,Roland Quad Capture, Ni Machine,Kore, Focusrite A/D converter, Blue Mic, Roland Gaia, Akai Mpk49, Yamaha HS80 Monitors.Software - Sonar Platinum , Vengeance VPS bundle,Sugar Bytes Effectrix, Turnado, NI Komplete 10 Ultimate, Dune, Rob Papen Blade , Delay, Punch Evolved. http://soundcloud.com/johnhartson/tracks http://www.youtube.com/user/jhart1313
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John T
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 13:07:41
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I DJ with Traktor too, and I really don't think you can compare that and Sonar, they're entirely different animals. Traktor doesn't place anything like the same kind of performance demands on the computer.
Ableton Live is another matter, though, and I think that comparison holds up.
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VigilantSound
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 13:11:34
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djjhart@aol.com
No disrespect , But I have tried Sonar along side my Traktor Pro in a live situation on an internet live radio show , needless to say Sonar did not preform well at all, I tried to use the matrix to run loops, without a sync or a real time nudge It was hard to get my loops to play in beat with traktor, I would have both tempos set at 128 and would have to nudge traktor forward or back wards to play on beat, I was able to use it but by no means was it flawless as Traktor or Abelton is , For me I like it if sonar could be as stable as abelton or traktor in the audio sense.. NOTE with either traktor or abelton the on board sound card works 100% better , And as far as Abelton is concerned ableton was made as a live tool at first , but now it can do everything sonar can, Well almost everything and can still be able to play live without any problems.. I would never trust Sonar in a live situation in a night club for 5 hours straight. As of right now X1 crashes way to much for me , Im patiently waiting and hoping that X1 , b,c,d,or e will sort out these audio problems. I fear that x1b will not address my ASIO issue and I will be stuck at X1 forever until I'm forced to buy another sound card. this has happened to me with 8.5, In september of last year I upgraded Like i do every year and when I did the upgrade , I was experiencing a loud screetching sound, I was not able to use8.5 until 8.5.3 was released in March, and once again Im back I had to revert back to X1 as X1a would crap out my sound. I been such a loyal user , but it seems when ever I do these upgrades I end up losing sound or I get pops clicks ect.. but on the same setup with another daw it works flawless WHY?, CW has made me buy other daws because I couldn't get sonar to work as intended I get no audio problems at all EVER with Logic, Abelton and presonus, Presonus I bought this year and I been using it alot lately and sorry to say I still haven't heard a pop at all. I wish and HOPE someday Sonar's Audio would work across the board. I write this in hopes you would implement a more stable audio output so to say, and an sync feature so I can use other programs in sync such as Traktor, ableton , or machine, In fact if sonar was as stable as the other daws I would never use Abelton ever again, I did give up on logic as I'm not one for working on laptops in the studio and not about to buy a new mac desktop for 3 grand. I love to use sonar x1 live as I do ableton synced with Traktor pro and machine someday.. is that much to ask.
Thanks John
If your running 2 apps side by side simply setting both tempos the same is not enough, you need to have them synced with midi clock... This is not a comment about Sonars stability in a live setting im simply trying to help a fellow musician...
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ba_midi
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 13:21:42
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Jonbouy
I must admit by X1's workflow departure having given me a really good excuse to see how things are done on other DAWs especially the relatively new kids of Reaper and S1 I'm really impressed with how they have got audio to behave.
But for me at least the production process falls into two definite phases which is indicated after the track and sound creation phase where I want everything to be nimble, low latency and glitch free.
The second phase, indicated by the fact that latency doesn't matter anymore and the audio buffer sizes can go as big as needed to accommodate whatever big gun DSP trickery I want to throw at a project.
It is during this first phase that I find other programs are stealing the march and leaving Sonar in the dust.
It is during the second phase that I start finding the lack in some of the newer apps. and start to really appreciate the huge depth that Sonar offers.
What I find frustrating is what somebody here recently called a lack of fit and finish that Sonar definitely has. Those perennial issues that may not be deal breakers in themselves but manage to club together in order to get in the way of smooth working.
I know things have to be prioritised against human resources, time and financial considerations, but I get baffled by the priority some functionally lukewarm bolt-ons (think BeatScape) that have been introduced meantime take up, when attention to this 'fit and finish' as previously described would make the whole Sonar experience more pleasing for everybody.
I may be wrong but I don't think Noel would need me to spell out what many of those 'fit and finish' details are because I do not believe he is ignorant or unaware of the majority of the wide range of issues that fall into that category.
I think you stated this very well and it mirrors much of my thinking too, Jon. I would even point to the lack of a real graphical GUI for the Pro Channel EQ as part of the 'fit and finish' issue. I know someone would say "it's emulating another EQ" - but that doesn't make sense to stick into an inline channel strip in a modern day DAW. But that's a bit off topic of course. But it all fits into the gapless audio/engine theme of making things "smooth".
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ba_midi
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 13:25:42
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I've said this in other threads so I hope it doesn't come off as too repetitive but I'm going to assume that the sales of X1 have been pretty good and those sales have increased revenues and perhaps even profits for the company. Larry, I'm not disagreeing with your comments in general, but whenever I see someone talk about the sales of a product without having actual inside and factual knowledge, it gives me pause. I don't think any of us can actually know how good or bad sales are unless it's a public company and they release the info, or unless some acredited agency makes the info available for any company.
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ba_midi
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 13:34:06
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Sorry for the long winded reply but I hope it clarifies some things. We want to do our best to address issues that prevent you from working effectively. Noel, I diidn't want to quote the entire message, but I did want to add something (info): I find I get more dropouts or gaps when I'm using a number of streaming plugins (non-frozen). I find I either don't get any dropouts or gaps when I've either bounced things down or frozen everything in the project. In LIVE, for example, I've done a bunch of projects and didn't bounce/freeze anything yet still never experienced a dropout (ever) and I think I may have had a minor gap or two in the year I've been using Live along with Sonar. So if I had to "guess" (and I realize as programmer you wouldn't be inclined to go with a guess alone), in Sonar it's the way the combination of live streaming data (plugins) and the mixing (engine) clashing at times. I know that's not very scientific of me, but I'm just trying to give you whatever feedback I can - at least as it relates to my experience with Sonar and other apps.
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djjhart@aol.com
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 13:44:35
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I DJ with Traktor too, and I really don't think you can compare that and Sonar, they're entirely different animals. Traktor doesn't place anything like the same kind of performance demands on the computer. Ableton Live is another matter, though, and I think that comparison holds up. John T
I DJ with Traktor too, and I really don't think you can compare that and Sonar, they're entirely different animals. Traktor doesn't place anything like the same kind of performance demands on the computer.
Ableton Live is another matter, though, and I think that comparison holds up.
Very True John.. I agree , Some kaka coming out =) , i admit. .. BUT I would really love to depend on sonar live , I can live with bugs problems even crashes because of some irregularity , but if I load a sample , track , one shot, ect , while playing back , I should never get a pause... I get pause's all the time, Even if I grab a knob for the first time it pause's, then I can grab the same knob and it i can move it freely without a pause in sound , if I go an touch another parameter , bang pause, touch it right after np.. Thats a huge gripe..
Computer - Intel Q9550, Intel BX48bt2 MB, W8 64 bit. 8 gb Ram, SSD Hardware - Tascam Fw1884 Control surface only, Ni S49 Komplete Kontroll,Roland Quad Capture, Ni Machine,Kore, Focusrite A/D converter, Blue Mic, Roland Gaia, Akai Mpk49, Yamaha HS80 Monitors.Software - Sonar Platinum , Vengeance VPS bundle,Sugar Bytes Effectrix, Turnado, NI Komplete 10 Ultimate, Dune, Rob Papen Blade , Delay, Punch Evolved. http://soundcloud.com/johnhartson/tracks http://www.youtube.com/user/jhart1313
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djjhart@aol.com
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 13:59:22
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If your running 2 apps side by side simply setting both tempos the same is not enough, you need to have them synced with midi clock... This is not a comment about Sonars stability in a live setting im simply trying to help a fellow musician... I'm aware of that.. I was simply stating how I was using Sonar . I not aware that I can sync Sonar up , I'm able to sync Machine, Im able to sync abelton , on my mac to my pc and I'm able to sync both ableton and traktor on my mac. But wasn't aware I could sync up Sonar, Please forward me the page number in pdf if you can.I love to try it.. My set up now is Ableton on my laptop pc, synced to my traktor pro via mac book pros faders mapped to my akai mpk , launch pad for ableton , and I use Ni machine to control my traktor parameters , all out from the sound cards go to my Xone 92 . eventually will like to sync maschine to traktor as well. But at the moment I would lose traktor controls, until i get Traktor S4. EDIT:Note I'm aware sonar wasn't developed for what Im asking.. Im just adding what I love to see Sonar grow into. I use Sonar Every day and would love to use it out at night Live. It would be an advantage to me because I have so many great 2 min tracks that I havn't done nothing with and it would be just easier to load up sonar drag a track into track 1, then 2 , 3, 4, ect and mix in and out , also sonar would have to add individual track tempo controls the unlimited dj console/daw, that would add a new dimension in both environments.. plus now we traktor 12 efxs .. it would be all over for every DAW / dj controller out there.. Then all you have to add is multiple video lanes for live video mixing..
post edited by djjhart@aol.com - 2011/01/27 14:41:54
Computer - Intel Q9550, Intel BX48bt2 MB, W8 64 bit. 8 gb Ram, SSD Hardware - Tascam Fw1884 Control surface only, Ni S49 Komplete Kontroll,Roland Quad Capture, Ni Machine,Kore, Focusrite A/D converter, Blue Mic, Roland Gaia, Akai Mpk49, Yamaha HS80 Monitors.Software - Sonar Platinum , Vengeance VPS bundle,Sugar Bytes Effectrix, Turnado, NI Komplete 10 Ultimate, Dune, Rob Papen Blade , Delay, Punch Evolved. http://soundcloud.com/johnhartson/tracks http://www.youtube.com/user/jhart1313
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Cakewalk Staff
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 14:17:56
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So yes, your response does bring out the cynicism in me and frankly, what you wrote above IS steering the blame away from Sonar. There was no need to do that. There was no need to write all that. Just stick to the issue at hand and ask for specific info and feedback. Anything else comes over as needlessly defensive and blame avoidance. And seriously, "We
don't always have the luxury of looking at and debugging your systems that exhibit the problems." is right out insulting. Sonar is broken. Don't blame the users. Dude I really dont know what you are reading into what I said. My response had nothing to do with blaming or "insulting" anyone else. Its simple troubleshooting that every developer on the planet needs to do. I was trying to illustrate the process that we typically undertake to solve problems and it has absolutely nothing to do with assigning blame. If you dont agree with this than we have to agree to disagree and leave it at that or we will be going around in circles debating this.
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Poco
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 14:22:45
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Geez Louize. You got the CTO of the company that makes the software you say you want improved, and all most of you have done is blather on about how you want it to be another product, and treat him and Brandon like crap. What, do you want them to ignore the forum or what? I get the impression you just want to piss and moan, then when you are called out you start blowing smoke and repeating "Ableton Live" like it means something, and saying "fix everything". Yeah, that's real helpful. How about this 10ten, Undertow, and others: Provide Noel a NUMBERED LIST OF ITEMS PRIORITIZED BY ORDINAL POSITION? Not more whine and poses! And if it boils down to: Turn effects on & off, both singularly and using the global effects button. Slip edit clips Change loop times and of course change screensets....... Please try telling them something they don't know. You might also try to quantify just how important these things are to you. I mean is this it? Is this the all time buzzkill that you guys are complaining about? Cry me a river. For what it is worth, Noel, Brandon et al, I run a recording and composition studio, so the audio engine dropout is not too big a deal for me, as I have never had it occur while tracking (and thereby lose a take). It does happen during mixdown when I do certain things like adjusting Ozone during playback with a heavy CPU load (I often run multiple instances of Ozone, both on tracks and busses). See, changing a mastering plug requires the audio to be running to determine how the changes are affecting the music. On the other hand, why do you need to hear the music while changing the screensets, or slip editing clips?? One is far more important than the other. Which one do you want them to fix first? I cannot recall SONAR ever being marketed as a live performance tool, and for the life of me cannot imagine why anyone would have a need to insert a soft synth during playback. There must be some reason, but I cant see taking the time and effort to make it seamless when there is other work to be done. Is dropout a minor inconvenience? Yes. Is it a show stopper? Not for me, and if it was, I would get on with providing an attentive CTO with some REAL assistance. Poco P.S. 10Ten, you deserve to be banned. -P
post edited by Poco - 2011/01/27 14:30:10
God People - God Music Where there is no peace, it is not peaceful.
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UnderTow
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 15:02:03
(permalink)
Poco
Provide Noel a NUMBERED LIST OF ITEMS PRIORITIZED BY ORDINAL POSITION?
Already done. Please try telling them something they don't know.
Well that is the really puzzling thing. All sorts of stuff glitches and it is confirmed by Brandon and even yourself. So Noel should really be fully aware of this but he goes on about third party plugins. Why? It doesn't add anything to the discussion. It really does look like blame avoidance. With the following sentence "We don't always have the luxury of looking at and debugging your systems that exhibit the problems." he implies the issues are with the customer's setup when it is very clear that the problem lies with Cakewalk. That is seriously out of order. You might also try to quantify just how important these things are to you. I mean is this it? Is this the all time buzzkill that you guys are complaining about? Cry me a river.
Well if you don't care about it then fine but why do you need to ridicule legitimate requests? On the other hand, why do you need to hear the music while changing the screensets, or slip editing clips??
Many people prefer to NEVER stop playback. Most DAWs can do this seamlessly. Why should we have to stop playback to change something that really should have no effect on the sound? That is just primitive. One is far more important than the other. Which one do you want them to fix first?
Both. They are both very important to the creative workflow and anyway, if you would bother to read, I have already clearly explained that anything that isn't directly related to changing the "audio engine" state should not ever glitch the playback. I cannot recall SONAR ever being marketed as a live performance tool
It was advertised as gapples already seven versions ago. Also this is not just about live performance. It breaks creativity when the audio glitches and gaps. It also means that the flow and rythm is broken. You are slung out of the creative zone and back into the reality of the limitations of Sonar. Not a good thing. Anyway, here is an example of seamless playback from another DAW that is not marketed as a live performance DAW: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKk6y3XCMF4#t=5m Regardless of anything else, many DAWS perform seamlessly so like it or not, now that the bar is up there, Cakewalk need to provide the same performance to remain competitive. , and for the life of me cannot imagine why anyone would have a need to insert a soft synth during playback. There must be some reason, but I cant see taking the time and effort to make it seamless when there is other work to be done.
The playback engine is the basis of a DAW. There is nothing more important than that. Is dropout a minor inconvenience? Yes. Is it a show stopper? Not for me
Fine so why are you even in this thread then? , and if it was, I would get on with providing an attentive CTO with some REAL assistance.
Already done... then Noel needlessly started blaming user setups and alluding to third party plugins. In light of everything that has been said in this thread (and countless other threads before) that is seriously worrying. UnderTow
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Guest
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 15:06:26
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Poco
Geez Louize. You got the CTO of the company that makes the software you say you want improved, and all most of you have done is blather on about how you want it to be another product, and treat him and Brandon like crap. What, do you want them to ignore the forum or what? I get the impression you just want to piss and moan, then when you are called out you start blowing smoke and repeating "Ableton Live" like it means something, and saying "fix everything". Yeah, that's real helpful.
How about this 10ten, Undertow, and others:
Provide Noel a NUMBERED LIST OF ITEMS PRIORITIZED BY ORDINAL POSITION? Not more whine and poses!
And if it boils down to:
Turn effects on & off, both singularly and using the global effects button.
Slip edit clips
Change loop times
and of course change screensets.......
Please try telling them something they don't know. You might also try to quantify just how important these things are to you. I mean is this it? Is this the all time buzzkill that you guys are complaining about? Cry me a river.
For what it is worth, Noel, Brandon et al, I run a recording and composition studio, so the audio engine dropout is not too big a deal for me, as I have never had it occur while tracking (and thereby lose a take). It does happen during mixdown when I do certain things like adjusting Ozone during playback with a heavy CPU load (I often run multiple instances of Ozone, both on tracks and busses). See, changing a mastering plug requires the audio to be running to determine how the changes are affecting the music. On the other hand, why do you need to hear the music while changing the screensets, or slip editing clips?? One is far more important than the other. Which one do you want them to fix first?
I cannot recall SONAR ever being marketed as a live performance tool, and for the life of me cannot imagine why anyone would have a need to insert a soft synth during playback. There must be some reason, but I cant see taking the time and effort to make it seamless when there is other work to be done. Is dropout a minor inconvenience? Yes. Is it a show stopper? Not for me, and if it was, I would get on with providing an attentive CTO with some REAL assistance.
Poco
P.S. 10Ten, you deserve to be banned.
-P
Before or after I repost my list of priorities? Why don't you leave the personal attacks out of this and discuss the topic instead of trying to hijack the thread. Some of us are trying to actually get this problem solved.
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Guest
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 15:09:26
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UnderTow
Already done... then Noel needlessly started blaming user setups and alluding to third party plugins. In light of everything that has been said in this thread (and countless other threads before) that is seriously worrying.
UnderTow
He says he wasn't doing that, so let's let it go and get back to working toward a solution to the issue. You're better than the tit for tat crap that a lot of posters do here and this is an important topic and problem.
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PeterMc
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 15:09:42
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Gaps and dropouts in a DAW mainly occur due to playback underrun issues. This happens when the stream of playback data cannot keep up to feed the driver's buffers. When this is detected, we dropout after a threshold (DropoutMsec ini setting). We force a dropout in such cases because otherwise you can get the infamous motorboating effect. This specific issue in turn can occur due to at least a few reasons.
- CPU overload or spikes in the system. (Even though your system has bandwidth a processing spike on one core can cause this).
- Operations that take too long to cook a buffers worth of data
- a bug in the program that interrupts the processing of a buffer too long.
- operations that currently cannot be performed in parallel with playback.
Based on the above when discussing such issues its generally more accurate to say that the program is not seamless when doing such operations rather than blaming it all on the audio engine :)
Would it be possible to throw a message saying why the dropout occurred, maybe even pointing to the offending plugin (if any)? Cheers, Peter.
i5 6500, H170M, Intel HD 530, 16GB, Focusrite Scarlett 8i6, Win 10 Pro (1803) (64 bit), Cakewalk by Bandlab
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Guest
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 15:10:51
(permalink)
PeterMc
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Gaps and dropouts in a DAW mainly occur due to playback underrun issues. This happens when the stream of playback data cannot keep up to feed the driver's buffers. When this is detected, we dropout after a threshold (DropoutMsec ini setting). We force a dropout in such cases because otherwise you can get the infamous motorboating effect. This specific issue in turn can occur due to at least a few reasons.
- CPU overload or spikes in the system. (Even though your system has bandwidth a processing spike on one core can cause this).
- Operations that take too long to cook a buffers worth of data
- a bug in the program that interrupts the processing of a buffer too long.
- operations that currently cannot be performed in parallel with playback.
Based on the above when discussing such issues its generally more accurate to say that the program is not seamless when doing such operations rather than blaming it all on the audio engine :)
Would it be possible to throw a message saying why the dropout occurred, maybe even pointing to the offending plugin (if any)?
Cheers, Peter.
The time writing that script could be spent getting rid of the issue.
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UnderTow
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Re:" Gapless Audio Engine " ..... any chance X1b will [ contine to ] improve this ?
2011/01/27 15:12:51
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PeterMc
Would it be possible to throw a message saying why the dropout occurred, maybe even pointing to the offending plugin (if any)?
That would be wonderful. Of course it might mean some extra strain on the engine. I suspect, or at least hope, that Noel can just compile X1 with debugging set to ON and see that easily but that is not the same thing has having debugging in a release version. UnderTow
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