ORIGINAL: D.Triny
then you'll surely agree that you had the dongle analogy backwards ?

Well ... that depends.
Do you have to have OSX installed to run boot camp?
Which would mean OSX has to be installed before you can run XP/Vista.
Which would make OSX the dongle yeah?

ORIGINAL: D.Triny
You are stretching the definition of a dongle.

Agreed.. I thought that was obvious.

By this logic any prerequisite software/binaries for any other piece of software would make the former a dongle. I'm sure you can think of many many software contingent relationships that would not be characterized by the average user as a dongle based relationship.

See the definition of Dongle at Wikipedia here.

In particular the sentence:
"When the dongle is not present, the software runs in a restricted mode or refuses to run."

I agree with you the entire definition does not fit the accepted use of the word dongle
because a dongle is defined as a piece of hardware.

However in my post I called OSX "a giant software dongle".
By which I meant I realise it's not an actual hardware dongle,
but for all intents and purposes, performs the same task, in relation to
XP/Vista being able to run on the machine, as a hardware dongle.

If you accept that OSX, if not present on an Intel Mac, will cause XP not to run,
then you must agree with me that the term "Software Dongle" could be interpreted
as appropriate.

On an Intel Mac... no OSX = no XP/Vista.
Which is a limitation. Not a feature.

As I've written before I predict that they will eventually
drop this limitation and allow XP/Vista (probably just Vista)
to run natively, unhindered by the need for another operating
system to be installed.

Which is when Apple will become just another PC maker like Dell,
HP and the rest......

ORIGINAL: inmazevo
Once Vista properly supports EFI instead of only BIOS, there will be little need for the OS X requirement for Windows on Mac hardware, as that's one of the bigger stumbling blocks...Intel certainly wants EFI to take off, and they've been trying for years, but it's actually starting to come around.
Whether EFI support on Vista installers will make it "just work" and install properly remains to be seen.

Drivers, you can get, as long as you can figure out what all the underlying hardware chipsets are.
I'm unaware of anything else hardware related that would make it more difficult, but I'm not a guru down in that world, so I'm sure I could be missing something.

Vista EFI support is SUPPOSED to be coming soon, maybe by SP1, though I'm not sure what that will do for you if you have a current Vista install disk... perhaps we'll be able to order media from MS, buy a Mac from Apple, and NOT ever put OS X on it.
Ha... that would be funny... somebody will do it. It won't be me, but someone will.
Personally, I actually like OS X. Using one OS all the time stifles my creativity, and starts hurting my eyes.

Yes.. but most users don't think that way.
For most people, once they've learned their way around an OS
they are not inclined to learn a new one if they don't have to.

This is what I've been getting at all along.
Once they have EFI working correctly in Vista, Intel Macs become Vista PCs.
Do you really think the thousands of Windows users out there who may be
tempted to buy a Mac, based purely on style or cool factor, will actually be bothered
to learn a new OS?
I don't.

So the possibility of a larger number of Intel Macs running Vista than OSX
looms large.

Given that scenario, it's not hard to imagine Apple dropping OSX altogether,
or at the very least phasing out support over the next couple of years.
Why bother with OSX if the majority of customers prefer Vista?

I know it seems incredible to people who use and like OSX, but it's
a definite possibility.

Steve & Bill may've even had this scenario planned all along,
ever since Bills little investment in Apple a few years back.

perhaps we'll be able to order media from MS, buy a Mac from Apple, and NOT ever put OS X on it. Ha... that would be funny... somebody will do it.

I think this will happen, but it won't be major news. Operating systems themselves aren't what they used to be. People just buy computers and the OS that is pre-installed is good enough. The energy is on the Web for Desktop PC's and on devices. Apple is showing that they can can move lots of unsubsidized devices. It's obvious that future iPods will run OSX...so there will be 10's of millions of ultramobile installations of OSX out there. (and I'm sure some people are going to try to include this in the "marketshare" numbers)

again the real war is iPhone vs Ultramobile PC...I think Apple is hoping that Microsoft doesn't pick up on this until it's too late. Actually I do think Microsoft has figured it out. There will unquestionably be a Zune Phone.

ORIGINAL: UnderTow

True but that was a different situation. There were not so many MP3 players at the time and they were certainly not nearly as ubiquitous as mobile phones are now. With the iPod Apple conquered a more or less empty market. With the iPhone they are playing catch up in an established and saturated market.

it will be tough. But i think barring a major reliability screw up they can have some success. They wont' be the top seller, but the product should be profitable. There's definitely a good bit of mindshare about it already:

"-- Piper Jaffray recently quizzed 500 teenagers and found that 84 percent had heard of the iPhone and, of those teens, 25 percent said they were willing to pay $500 for it. The survey also reported that 78 percent of high school students own a portable media player and, of them, 82 percent own an iPod"

(from: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2007/04/13/BUGGUP80UU1.DTL&type=business)

so far I've found that teens know alot about LG Chocolate and Apple iPhone...but interestingly my son got the White LG Chocolate and a lot of his friends are insisting that it is the iPhone.

I found this comment interesting on the following page: http://msmobiles.com/news.php/5693.html

In Windows Mobile camp manufacturers have problems with a) [Samsung, Motorola] and with b) [all of them - even HTC is not covering all segments because it doesn't have Pocket PC phone with QWERTY keyboard for single-handed usage], so it is good to see that market research company clearly underlines that b) is very important for market success.

Not being a marketeer I don't know how important single-handed usgae is for the general public but it certainly is for me. I don't think it will be very easy to type one handed on an iPhone...

UnderTow

ORIGINAL: ooblecaboodle
Holy crap, when I was a teen, there was no way I could afford to spend $500 (£250, but knowing the way these things always work, it'll probably end up being £500) on ANYTHING! Hell, it's STILL a bit of a stretch now!

Willing to is not the same thing as being able to. This kind of thing is SO dependant on the phrasing of the question. And even if 21% of teens in a limited "market research" are able to, this in no way reflects the global market.

UnderTow

And even if 21% of teens in a limited "market research" are able to, this in no way reflects the global market.

yeah, I'm careful though about which analysts I'll give any credibility. Piper Jaffray has a decent enough history that I could trust their statistical methodology. Still cannot predict what people will eventually buy, but I think the fact that Apple has gotten at least the iPhone brand out there is a significant opportunity. We'll know late September how they fared.

ORIGINAL: D.Triny
Arguing hypotheticals bores me.

hehehe
You must be pretty damned bored by now then
because "Arguing hypotheticals" is all we've done here for
the last 20 pages!

You can't get much more hypothetical than a port of SONAR to OSX.

hehehe
You must be pretty damned bored by now then
because "Arguing hypotheticals" is all we've done here for
the last 20 pages!

You can't get much more hypothetical than a port of SONAR to OSX.

Nice Recap...Perfect...

ORIGINAL: jinga8
Nice Recap...Perfect...

Thx.
I try my best

What? Just because they're not selling Macs with OSX installed?

nope. Because they aren't doing anything original. Boring.

yes you can.

Ah...now I see...thanks for all those examples backing up your little quip, axe...uhh...i mean D....

OK, so..."yes you can"..."for example......"
And it better be MORE hypothetical, not LESS hypothetical or JUST AS hypothetical either...you promised us progress in the hypotheticality (isn't making words up grand ) department, and we expect you to deliver....so, where's the beef D? SHOW US THE BEEF!!!!!

And to think I've actually been taking him seriously all this time....

for shame

I don't expect anything from D Triny except Mac Zealotry and anti PC bigotry.

anti-PC bigotry eh? Can you really read?