Turbo1
Please sign the petition against Gibson to save SONAR Cakewalk.
https://www.change.org/p/...ampaign=share_petition

I assume you mean "for" and not "against".
I don't think a petition is going to change the situation, it's a business, it will be dealt under those conditions (money mainly), not what customers think.

"Lifetime updates" obviously meant within the products lifetime. Right now the product does not appear to be alive.

The medium where the installers lie on does not matter, just take backups. What matters is that the software can be activated.

CakeAlexSHere
What Shark was describing it seemed to me is corruption is with project files over several versions.

Being a QA tester as well I've seen this happen with a lot of complex software. What happens is after a while the project file format needs to change, however the code does not allow for fuly backwards compatibility and thus corruption with the file structure. The way to get around this is to write cleanup code to make sure the projects files are "cleaned up". Such is the nature of agile methods Devs can argue this is an enhancement request and not a bug, it gets thrown on the back burner and so the story continues. Another reason could be that the project file format design itself was insufficient or flawed (I do hope that gets published one day btw).

Enough speculation for you I hope.

Again incorrect speculation. We always had a backwards and forwards compatible file format from the get go so this was very rarely the cause of problems. And any issues regarding compatibility were always at the topmost of the list and were squashed even before release most of the time.

Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Sharke I have a lot of respect for you (as you know I hope based on our past communications) but you are reacting emotionally rather than rationally to this. We clearly said that as and when there was more information it would be presented. Transitioning a company can take a fairly LONG time - it doesn't happen overnight. The fact that there was a transition team of a few people (myself included) obviously means Gibson wants to do something to "transition" the company. So why not wait until such event happens and make up your mind based on facts instead of speculation? I've already said publicly that none of what you indicate as the nightmare scenario would happen since we've already planned for such an escrow situation. Whether I am there or not users wouldn't be left hanging like that. Thats the least we could do to take care of people but I'm sure it will never get to that.

 
To be fair, I don't think I'm reacting emotionally at all, just the opposite in fact. Note that I'm not one of these posting "This is BS/class action lawsuit/they have screwed us once and they'll do it again/they just took our money and ran/I've just read the news and I'm in tears" kind of ranters. But a rational viewpoint to take would be to consider the possibility that a whole bunch of things could happen in a situation like this, regardless of the reassurances of Cakewalk staff (whom I assume have the best of intentions throughout). Sometimes, making up your mind has to include some kind of speculation. I have a smoke detector in my apartment based upon the speculation that a fire might take place in the future. Humans evolved the ability to speculate for a reason. 
 
 

Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]If course there is something on the cards - why would there be a transition team if not? But nobody can predict the future including Gibson so there isn't anything to share about timelines or events till it happens.
Crossgrade offers happen all the time and of course companies are going to jump on an event like this. The timing was poor I'll admit but there wasn't anything we could do to change the past.

 
There you have it - nobody can predict the future. A transition team is a good sign, for sure - but is that any guarantee that the company will fall into the hands of a new owner? Anything could happen. I'm sure that when you're actually there on the scene, and you know people, and you're privy to certain conversations and meetings, then you probably have a much more confident idea of what is or isn't likely to happen. For the rest of us, we're almost completely blind and we have to take into account every possibility, one of which is that the development of Sonar might never continue where it left off. 
 

Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]>>Regarding bugs, I cannot shake off my hunch that something really weird happens to Sonar projects the older and larger they get.
That hunch is incorrect. Most of your bugs were corruption related and caused by weird interactions with plugins. Although large projects can expose such bugs more since more memory is used by the app but its highly unlikely to be related to the actual size of the project. I personally investigated some of them and could never get them to happen. Unfortunately looking through a million lines of code to speculatively fix problems can be a huge time sink. We definitely did put in a lot of time to find them and indeed found and fixed many issues you personally reported. As you say even you could barely repro them yourself - so now imagine what it takes for a developer to try and fix it with no recipe and just using imagination!

 
Looking through my bug list, I can see that yes, some of my bugs were plugin related, but on the other hand, many weren't (certainly not "most"). Also, I often came across problems which I posted about on the forum (frequently including a screencast) but which I never got to submit reports for because I didn't even come close to finding a workable recipe. Many of them were related to stuff like automation, looping, moving clips, internal MIDI routing etc and I could never reproduce them in a fresh project. They only ever happened in large and/or aging projects. For instance, I sometimes come across a situation in which drag-copying a clip with "select automation envelopes with clip" enabled would result in the original clip's automation being destroyed. I'd try it in a new project and it would work perfectly. I frequently run up across weird stuff like that which defies all attempts to recreate in a fresh project, and it sure doesn't sound like an issue with plugin corruption. As another example I will sometimes encounter the strangest MIDI related stuff going on, like notes being triggered in one track's synth when hitting mute or solo on a completely unrelated track. Or recently, I have found that in older projects I sometimes encounter a track which has none of its plugin automation parameters exposed in the automation edit filter. Oftentimes the problem goes away on a fresh launch of the project, making it even harder to pin down. 
 
I don't think I use any plugins which are "shady" or have a reputation as being problematic. It's all pretty respectable stuff from companies like Waves, NI, Soundtoys etc. And a lot of the problems I had weren't crash-related (although I did have my fair share of crashes and hangs) - many consisted of basic functionality of the program acting weirdly. 
 
 
 

I can't quote Sharkes last comment without being seen as a spammer.


Noel could easily state it just takes one plugin to do it, and there's no way you could actually tell from an outsider's perspective.

You could state that you don't experience this with other DAWs using the same plugins.

Looking at the way things were handled from a customer perspective I am stating feedback when logging bugs was poor, often zero, rarely two way.

Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
 I think one thing all users of music software in this age should do is take a step back and think about what it means to support the software from the companies you use. Its a very fragile industry and software is being constantly devalued making it harder and harder for companies to survive. Its tempting to think that companies are huge and will make it without the support of every one of us but that isn't the reality.

Glad to see Noel commenting, and good to hear there's hope for SONAR going forward.  I completely agree that all of the DAWs have bugs, probably about the same number.  Whether they affect you or not depends on your workflow and the features that you use. 
 
I have experienced several of the issues that Sharke has, and my point with posting the bug lists earlier was that just because you have not seen bugs in your workflow doesn't mean that others who have must be doing something wrong.
 
Personally, I thought that Noel and company were doing an amazing job of feature updates and bug fixes on a  monthly basis, and I have always supported Cakewalk by buying every single update (up until I bought the lifetime updates of course) as well as some of the other products.
 
At this point though I have taken advantage of 2 of the cross-grade deals to learn Studio One and Cubase.  If SONAR comes back I may switch back, and I will continue to use it to access old projects.  I still think it's the best DAW for the features I want and the workflow I use.  Studio One could use some MIDI improvements and Cubase lacks ARA.
 
Bottom line is I prefer to use a DAW that is being actively developed, where bugs have a chance to be fixed, and where new features are coming.  As I said before it's a perfectly valid choice also to image your drive, be judicious with OS updates and keep using SONAR for the next 10 years if you want.

It's nice to see you here Noel 😉
And good to hear Cakewalk may have a future. I'm not feeling too upbeat about it though, since even if it gets revived, you'll need to bring on a whole new team of devs (again!) so there will be a big learning curve and there must be a myriad of code that -no one- actually recognises any more - buried in there 😉

Anyway, I'm not going anywhere in a hurry, but I've been playing around with Reaper for the last few weeks, and after a little bit of a learning curve - I can get comfortable with this.

I'll just be making a slow transition, and if anything good happens with Cakewalk - I'll just slide right back.
Unless I get Reaper so customised that I can't move from it... ☺️

sharke

Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]

julianochrisway
...
 
So that's it, I made this text about my vision of what happened to the company, putting facts on the table, without creating crazy theories.

 ...
 
I recommend that folks take a wait and see approach over the next few months. It takes time to transition a company to a new owner. The product works great today and will continue to do so for many years even if there were no changes. There is no pressing need to immediately stop work on SONAR and jump to a different product despite other companies bids to acquire Cakewalk customers. I'd personally like to see our customers support a company that actually wants to retain the heritage of this great product and build upon it.

... 
 
Your last paragraph is certainly interesting and is going to get a lot of people talking. Does Noel know something? Is there something on the cards? Are there potential buyers? Are talks taking place as we speak? However without something more definite, people are stuck with the possibility that Sonar might remain unsupported in perpetuity, and while crossgrade offers are still on the cards then people are going to continue to jump ship. 
 
...

If there was a realistic possibility that Sonar (Cakewalk) might survive then the wording of the original statements and the subsequent FAQs should have been different. There is definitely some vague stuff in there like "Monthly updates to SONAR from Cakewalk will however cease during this time." but when I read the various announcements there was nothing that suggested to me that Cakewalk would survive. The subsequent silence, for me at least, confirmed that Cakewalk were finished and if I wanted a DAW with a future roadmap Sonar was no longer an option. I appreciate that its difficult to communicate with the restrictions that apply in these situations but as a user I have to base my response on the information that is available.
 
There remains one pressing reason for users to switch and that is the current set of Sonar specific crossgrade offers which will eventually end. 
 
In the final analysis Sonar's Unique Selling Point for me was nothing to do with the features it was the familiarity I have built up over a number of years. Sure it was/is a great DAW but the alternatives are also great DAWs, equally capable but different.
 
I sincerely hope that Cakewalk does survive but having invested in what I need to move Beyond Cakewalk it would take something pretty amazing for me to switch back.

julianochrisway
Returning to the future of Sonar. Thank you Noel for confirming what I posted. But what worries us is that Gibson will continue with Cakewalk. I sincerely prefer that they sell Cake to some really responsible company that is willing to change the scenario. It is for example I teach music production and Sonar is the Daw that all my students use. Now I need to upgrade and I'm going to add FL Studio as well. I will continue to use Sonar and hope that this problem is fully resolved.

You might want to contact Acoustica. They have an Educational program and might cut you a good deal now.
Also they have this:
https://www.acoustica.com/edu/

I have been lurking on these forums for years (decades?).  I don't believe I have ever posted; that's just me.  Thank you to all of you who have had so much to say over these years.  I have learned a great deal; I apologize for not reciprocating.  I didn't even know that this had happened but was wondering why I hadn't received a recent (lifetime) update.  Then, I signed in to this forum and, quite belatedly, learned something I did not wish to learn.
 
I must give my condolences to the people who made this such an awesome tool.  Thank you to the Cakewalk workers. You are responsible for so much music.  There are many other great things which are now available to you- find them.
 
I went through this very thing with my first computer based sequencer, VISION.  Crude and limited by today's standards but a brilliant piece of software in it's day and it was my springboard into the electronic space.  I loved it, but it died.  I love Sonar and, now...
 
I have such hatred toward the makers of this decision.  Hatred.  Yes I am an imperfect person and I do indeed indulge in hate.  That overpriced Les Paul hanging on my wall? - well, it may be pretty but it has never contributed to my creativity in the way that Sonar has.  I think I hate it as well.
 
I'll keep using Sonar for as long as possible.  As for that POS Gibson LP, it's destiny lies with Craigslist. 
 
Bill Trawick
North End Studio
Anchorage AK
 
P.S.,  As for the Gibson exec's who thought up this debacle, I'm reminded of what my father would say when he was displeased with a persons performance, intellect, or political affiliation; "I wouldn't p_ss down their throats if their GD guts were on fire".  Well said dad.

my first sonar was 7 and that had more bugs and less features than later models. It seemed to me at least that especially with x3 and platinum more people were saying the program felt "snappier" rather than "buggy".  
 
One bug/oddity that persisted with me from version to version and computer to computer and sound card to soundcard was the scrub tool would drop out if overused. But overall over my user lifetime I can say that Sonar was greatly cleaned up-- audio engine for one thing was a hell of a lot more robust

Damn ...

I hadn't checked in here in a while, but I suspected this was the case when the new year came and there were still no updates since October.

This makes me REALLY angry at Gibson, and very glad that none of my money ever went to any product of theirs other than Cakewalk.

Well ... I guess it's a good thing I bought Cubase 9 a few months ago. And I suppose it's good that Sonar should continue to work as it always has. But Sonar has been my main DAW since 2004, so this is very upsetting.

sharke
One thing that's very clear though - if Sonar was to come back through a new owner, there would have to be some pretty drastic changes. It evidently wasn't selling well under Roland and it certainly wasn't selling well under Gibson so the question has to be asked - how does Sonar build up its user base to the point where it's financially healthy? Whatever they were doing over the past couple of years apparently didn't work.

Each DAW is in some way trying to corner a particular area of the market. You have your standard recording/mixing DAW's like PT, S1, Logic etc and you have your pattern based DAW's like Ableton, Bitwig and FL. Somewhere along the way Sonar was nosed out from the main lineup and never managed to muscle its way back in. Is that because the corner of the market Sonar is aimed at is already saturated with DAW's? It doesn't exactly fill a gap in the market. Are there any gaps in the market? If so, perhaps any future development of Sonar ought to think about accommodating them.

Cold but true.
Darn I so hate the truth.

You know what I really f**king loved Sonar. I guess I was the ultimate fanboy. It's just so sad that nothing smart happened and the propaganda (you know what I'm talking about without mentioning names) screwed all over it, and many were happy to suck it all in. I'm a lot angrier now that when I started writing this paragraph so shall quit whist I'm ahead (or behind), but really this should have been a GREAT product and not a religion, to me that was really the major problem. That is my final conclusion after scanning all this mess and all the discussions here.

Well, the vultures are circling. Just now found this. Cubase crossgrade for Sonar owners:

https://www.steinberg.net...sonar-owners-4579.html
 
And also this:
 
https://www.steinberg.net...e_for_sonar_users.html
 
Folks, this is the FULL version of Cubase's latest DAW (as of Jan 2018), Cubase 9.5, for $339.00 (that's 220.00 off the regular price). You got about 1 week left to jump on this.

sharke
... because either a) they were tied up in legacy code and to fix some of them would require extensive rewriting so as not to break anything else, b) there just wasn't enough manpower to devote any meaningful effort to cleaning them up, or c) both of the above.

I agree to you both, you and chuckebaby. I think probably c) is the truth.
 
But from my own experience I have learned that it is the death of a software if managers become aware that there is not enough manpower to achieve a target, because they pump in to many heads too quickly and even the best working team cannot cope with that. And as the existing crew is in pressure anyway, they have no time to introduce the new ones. Therefore the new ones bring in a lot of new ideas and views, they want to replace almost the whole stuff, because they do not understand the current code. Additionally beginning from a certain number of heads, say 10 or more, it requires some coordination, say overhead.
 
All that's why I am convinced that it is best to have a small team of extraordinary people for the success of a software product. In the end this would be the fastest way to the target!