yevster
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/26 23:36:59
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Fog
I was looking at my email from 1/3/2012 regarding cubase 6.5... it cost, but considering you were getting 2 decent synths on top of the other stuff, then yer it wasn't so much fleecing that were really more new features than fixes.
that's the time they were changing up the interface for v7, no doubt..
unless they have changed the mp3 thing in 7 is paid for now and included. then the license on my dongle / mp3 is expired.. I use lame anyway.
and the 6.06 update came out later BUT without the synths IRC.. but the update price to 7 had a cheaper value if you had 6.5
Fleecing? 8.5 included two new channel strips (each with new effects), Session Drummer 3, with new content, Matrix View - which can be considered an instrument of sorts, though it really redefined Sonar abilities, a significantly spiffed up step sequencer, with functionality most competitors still haven't matched, etc. Compare that to the Logic X release or any Pro Tools release.
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/26 23:48:04
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby yevster 2013/09/26 23:53:51
Funkybot
Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
So you haven't used the product and you've already drawn your conclusion. That sounds pretty reasonable.
Is that Andrew saying, "So you haven't used the product and you've already drawn your conclusion. That sounds pretty reasonable."
If so, let me ask some questions:
1. Did you guys include MP3 encoding for free?
2. Did you guys fix the Disk May Be Full bug? What about how you write/save projects so they don't corrupt so easily? What about duplicate notes on quantization? What about the Sonar icon remaining in the tray after a close (which often prevents a new instance from opening without manually shutting down SonarPDR.exe in the task manager)? Any of those?
3. Did you improve signal flow to allow for more advanced audio routing? Can I route a VSTi output to an audio input?
4. Have you updated the Staff View or improved notation?
5. Will Sonar X3 recognize my mono UAD plugins and use DSP accordingly?
6. Does Sonar X3 include a dynamically resizable vector based console so I can see the full strips in the dock? Did you redesign the console to make better use of screen real estate? The 8.5 console was much better IMO.
7. Did you get rid of the annoying pop-up questions when pasting or inserting an instrument track that distract from Workflow?
8. Did you make it easier to quickly add/subtract outputs to a VSTi (a la Studio One)?
9. Did you finally create proper Instrument Tracks that can house MIDI and audio effects? Do they have all the same functionality as the separate MIDI+audio tracks did, just intelligently combined into one?
10. Did you add varispeed playback and recording like Reaper (man that's fun, and great for some Beatles-esque harmonies)?
11. Is VST 2/3 support FINALLY built in and not part of legacy Fxpansion code from their VST wrapper (which we wouldn't have needed if you opted to support VST natively from the get go and not DXi - but I digress)? Will it recognize which VST plugins send/receive tempo information, and can send receive MIDI without having to go into a separate plugin Properties window?
12. Did you simplify the Snap to Grid features which have clearly caused confusion (used to work great BTW - wasn't broken but it got fixed)
13. Can I navigate from plugin to plugin on a channel from within a single plugin's UI (a la Logic and Studio One)?
14. How much better is comping in X3? It looks like you made improvements here, this is nice.
15. Most importantly: how much less will Sonar X3 crash compared to prior versions? Was there a focus on stability? Perhaps rewriting VST support will fix a lot of that, but I'd like your thoughts.
Andrew, I'm glad you guys: 1) may have rewritten VST support entirely (it was overdue, but if it's here, great), and 2) appeared to have made tweaks to Take Lanes (they're a good idea, but were just not implemented well last time), and also 3) have finally got rid of the max plugin limit. These are all good things. However, that's a very small part of what I want to see you guys address. And yes, I'm basing this off of the bullet points I've seen. Andrew, you can come back and answer my questions in a few days once the full info can be released if you can't disclose some of this now.
My point: I don't think most of the above has been addressed by X3, so I don't need to use it. If you guys only addressed item #1, I'd be more interested in X3 than I am based on the bullet points that have leaked. If you addressed items 1-5 on my list only, I'd be almost certain to upgrade. I think maybe you covered 2-4 items on the list though, and not enough of my top 5 to get me excited.
EDIT
I just want to add again, there are a lot of things I LOVE in Sonar. I've been a user for over a decade. I'm sour on the direction it's been going, but nothing's permanent. Andrew, if anything, take these critiques as feedback and things you may want to address in some future release (if not already). Work on addressing some of these things. Work on getting me back on the Sonar wagon for X5 or X4 if not sooner.
Think about doing less frequent releases with bigger changes too. The late-September/early-October period doesn't NEED to be Sonar time every single year. I'd be fine if you guys waited 18 months to get some of this stuff really ironed out.
Consider adding Mac support. Cross-platform support becomes more important to me each year as I occasionally get projects originated on a Mac, or dare I say: after Apple released those awesome looking Mac Pro's.
The list contains mostly feature requests, some vague bugs, and some questions. Subjective or not, nothing wrong with making some suggestions though :) I do want to comment on a theme I keep reading recently though (from various posters). Some of the "bugs" mentioned are not really "bugs" in SONAR per say. If the program is silently crashing and is hanging in the background, requiring a restart or forced end process, there might be an underlying issue that needs addressing but that's too general of a statement to call that a "bug". The "bug" isn't "SONAR doesn't close properly". If that is the case, every DAW I've used has experienced that bug and their developers too need to fix it. ;) I'm not trying to get into semantics by the way, more just what is important information. The underlying issue with a silent crash is that something didn't allow the program to fully close properly. That's obviously not intended behavior. Most of the time it's drivers. It could be a SONAR bug, it could be a driver issue, memory leak from a plug-in, etc. Or could be something wrong with the system in general. Determining what the cause of that is the important thing to do, otherwise you're not really making any progress with anything. Using that mentality, I'd love to know when Apple is going to fix the issue with half of the programs I use in OS X requiring me to Force Quit pretty much as an every day event. Seriously, it happens all the time! I'm not trying to be snarky, it's just that disc full errors, file corruption, or silent crashes are outcomes, results, effects. You can never fully fix those if they're being caused by third-party factors. What you can fix are the causes to try to prevent those things from happening. Sometimes those fixes are on the user end, sometimes on the developer end. It's a combination of both. So we can't really answer questions like this fully because to do so wouldn't really be accurate. Getting to my point, from what I've been seeing in the reporting, some of the big stability causes/issues that were present in X1 and X2 (based on the fault reporting data that we've been collecting) have been squashed. So yes, SONAR X3 is already seeming to be a more stable program in that regards. Once it gets out into the field we'll be collecting data and working quickly to improve it even more. I'm sure there will be some things that slip out. If any stability concerns are brought up, we'll be paying attention and working to actively and quickly resolve them. This is the plan. BTW, you're making some big assumptions regarding recycled code for VST. Noel has specifically addressed this multiple times (most recently here: http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/2866988 ). It's a bit odd that this keeps coming up from people who aren't SONAR developers. As far as direct answers to some of the questions about X3, more info will come soon, but I will say that the VST updates and comping updates are very significant. --- Anyhow, I'm getting totally sidetracked. SONAR X3 offers a lot of new stuff and we haven't even fully discussed it yet, but a lot of under the hood stuff went into it. For SONAR X2 we spent several months on X2a as one major update. We've definitely absorbed a lot of feedback from users that have expressed wanting to see more updates throughout a product's life cycle. So… if trying to express this desire is the whole point of this thread, then I can confirm basically everyone involved in SONAR's development and direction has heard and understands this.
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robert_e_bone
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/27 05:51:03
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Eloquent post, Ryan.
Even back to the Cakewalk explanation posted earlier on what went into 8.5, there is a TON of stuff that goes into a release. Consider also that X1, in addition to the new functionality it brought, also a complete redo of the UI. X2 and then X2a also included a ton of new and reworked stuff.
Did everybody's wishlist get implemented? Nope - mine either, but every release of Sonar has brought significant development to the table, and from what has thus far been disclosed for X3, this is CERTAINLY also the case.
How about we let Cakewalk get to the point of ACTUALLY RELEASING X3, then give it a try, and THEN start figuring out if it makes sense to upgrade to it?
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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dorism
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/27 06:05:14
(permalink)
Will a demo be released at the same time Ryan? It would be be good to try it out to see if the bugs/features have been addressed. Also is there a detailed change log coming out? They were great.
www.thehadroncollider.co.uk
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Skyline_UK
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/27 06:07:20
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Ryan, illegitimi non carborundum.  John
My stuff Intel Sandy Bridge i7 2600 @ 3.4GHz, 4 cores, 8 threads, 16GB RAM.OS & Programs drive: 240GB SSD
Data drives: 1 x 1TB drive RAID mirrored, plus extra 1TB data drive
Windows 10 Home 64 bit
Cakewalk by BandLab 64 bit, Studio One 3, Band In A Box 2016, Ozone 8+ too many other pluginsBandLab page
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robert_e_bone
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/27 06:16:30
(permalink)
Huh? Illuminati what?
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/27 06:29:06
(permalink)
dorism
Will a demo be released at the same time Ryan? It would be be good to try it out to see if the bugs/features have been addressed. Also is there a detailed change log coming out? They were great.
Demo version are not normally released until some time after the main release - just so any MAJOR overseen bugs can get sorted out pronto.
CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughoutCustom built i7 3930, 32Gb RAM, 2 x 1Tb Internal HDD, 1 x 1TB system SSD (Win 7), 1 x 500Gb system SSD (Win 10), 2 x 1Tb External HDD's, Dual boot Win 7 & Win 10 64 Bit, Saffire Pro 26, ISA One, Adam P11A,
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Fog
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/27 07:10:35
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yevster
Fog
I was looking at my email from 1/3/2012 regarding cubase 6.5... it cost, but considering you were getting 2 decent synths on top of the other stuff, then yer it wasn't so much fleecing that were really more new features than fixes.
that's the time they were changing up the interface for v7, no doubt..
unless they have changed the mp3 thing in 7 is paid for now and included. then the license on my dongle / mp3 is expired.. I use lame anyway.
and the 6.06 update came out later BUT without the synths IRC.. but the update price to 7 had a cheaper value if you had 6.5
Fleecing? 8.5 included two new channel strips (each with new effects), Session Drummer 3, with new content, Matrix View - which can be considered an instrument of sorts, though it really redefined Sonar abilities, a significantly spiffed up step sequencer, with functionality most competitors still haven't matched, etc. Compare that to the Logic X release or any Pro Tools release.
my original post was to "clarify" what happened with it.. no one forced anyone to buy 6.5 , as that 6.0.6 update was released a few weeks after. channel strip was nice.. but sd 3 = recycled from SI drums + SD2 etc , not sure how it's coded but I'm assuming there is a base channel for 1 drum then * 14 or whatever "instances" of that ..class etc. they joy of code re-use / inheritance... matrix view wasn't as tight as I felt it should be (compared to rivals) , they should have got someone in who has used MPC's for years as a producer (jeremy ellis being 1 for a start and I can name a few this side of the pond) .... still the gui looked good right for the photos ? *shrugs*... "spiffed up the step sequencer" , this is what I was referring to with this +1 on the version front, elsewhere. the prime example of "looks nice , shame about the functionality" was beatscape you can't compare it to logic / protools , dunno why people do.. as fundamentally their upgrade etc model is different , the short version being "lock in" with both... buy a computer... custom plugin format.. industry standard blah blah etc etc. and that does have an impact on other things on a range of things. other things e.g. plugins like fabfilters stuff, do feel / seem better crafted tbh. dunno if you use/tried them, but you get the point if you do. I will look forward to reading what Noel releases regarding whats changed before I even consider looking at an upgrade.
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Keith Albright [Cakewalk]
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/27 08:56:16
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Zo
Glyn Barnes
Cakewalk always had a one year development cycle, that changed with X1, now its back again.
A business has to maintain a revenue stream, for the consumer its a two edge sword but if the company goes bust while putting out free updates nobody wins.
yep but we gota also 2 or 3 update (and bug fixes) a year ....not one and shut up ! ....i feel X2 users ...i installed X2 one week ago : crashola few time , done with it , gonna check X3 but if bug fixes AREN'T the absolute priority ...bad move guyz ...bad moves .....more than short terme money , they can impact the whole company health by losing credibilaty .....they made great work to be seen as a real BIG player in the game .....they can screw that real easy unless they call themselves AVID
I understand nothing is perfect. But know we are committed to quality and new compelling features as well as continuing to improve on existing features. There was an X2A. That easily had two hundred fixes in that. It wasn't a tiny patch by any stretch. As a demonstration of our commitment to quality, we built an automatic fault reporter and added fault detection to the applications. In addition we have the web problem reporter. https://www.cakewalk.com/support/contact/problemreport.aspx We do look at both the automatic and web entered reports and work to address them. Obviously we don't have infinite time or resources, so we must prioritize. But, the more everyone uses these systems, the better the priorities will be. Thanks. Keith
post edited by Keith Albright [Cakewalk] - 2013/09/27 12:17:10
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dorism
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/27 10:33:48
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As an old timer (sonar 1 user) my experiences with X2 and X2a have made me really sceptical about Sonar and Cakewalk  X2 was stillborn as far as I'm concerned. A complete waste of time and money. On my rig (Z series HP workstation as recommended by Cakewalk!) - it exhibited absolutely dire stability. If you were one of the unlucky one's to be afflicted by the 'graphical bugs' talked about at length on here, then you were on your own. It was actually embarrassing using X2 with clients as they could see the tracks flicker and the clips jumping around when I moved them. toe curling doesn't do it justice. It never got fixed and workarounds had to be implemented. Even worse - X2 would crash so badly the fault reporter would get bypassed and you could be left with a corrupted project. When bugs were reported they could disappear into the ether with nothing other than an automated response for weeks. When a response did come back it would often be one of the following - not a bug this is how its supposed to work (e.g. being able to move a midi clip into an audio track!) - a local issue - something to do with my PC (see point above re: my rig) Do the dev and support teams actually talk about defects? Before going back to the user - someone in cakewalk should be thinking - hang on - being able to move a midi clip into an audio track just doesn't make sense - I know it works as specificed but lets get that sorted because it's illogical - not just kick it back with 'this is how its intended to work' crap.  X2 was so pathetically unstable I had to shell out £400 for Cubase 7 - in contrast - I have had 6 point releases which included lots of bug fixes and enhancements. I have not had one crash that time (on the same rig). There is constant dialogue between Steinberg staff and the user community. They have produced an amazing product. Just compare audio quantisation or tempo detection in both and its laughable - similarly scoring, mp3 support out the box, built in audio editor - its just not even in the same ballpark right now. Anyway the purpose of this rant (apart form making me feel better :-) is to raise the point that its not just about products.If it was Sonar would have lost a long time ago. Its about having ongoing support, a culture and the feeling that the community is being listened to, bugs are being squashed, and products enhanced. I want Cakewalk to find its soul again. It used to be innovative and so ahead of the game - but its fallen behind - pursuing less essential features (like touch) - whilst long overdue features such as scoring and audiosnap remain unchanged in years! Sonar needs to play catch up in so many, many areas, with limited resources it has to be absolutely on the ball and focused. Forget the fluff. Despite my moaning lol - I haven't actually given up on Sonar yet - why - because I've been a loyal customer for over a decade, I am a supporter and I don't give up that easily - but if I am to switch back full time, I need to see evidence of the old culture of Cakewalk re-emerging. The spunky upstart who destroyed the old guard. Presonus appear to be taking on that mantle now. I want to see a commitment to catch up and overtake the competition (where's the roadmap guys?), fix the product continuously between major releases, and be completely open about its intentions. Sonar's main attractions to me are its amazing workflow, single window paradigm (cusbase it a nightmare on that front lol) and this community. With a bit of TLC it could be absolutely amazing. and.. brreathe  Now... when is X3 coming out :)
www.thehadroncollider.co.uk
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/27 13:03:09
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk] 2013/09/27 13:05:14
dorism
As an old timer (sonar 1 user) my experiences with X2 and X2a have made me really sceptical about Sonar and Cakewalk
X2 was stillborn as far as I'm concerned. A complete waste of time and money. On my rig (Z series HP workstation as recommended by Cakewalk!) - it exhibited absolutely dire stability.
If you were one of the unlucky one's to be afflicted by the 'graphical bugs' talked about at length on here, then you were on your own. It was actually embarrassing using X2 with clients as they could see the tracks flicker and the clips jumping around when I moved them. toe curling doesn't do it justice. It never got fixed and workarounds had to be implemented.
Even worse - X2 would crash so badly the fault reporter would get bypassed and you could be left with a corrupted project.
When bugs were reported they could disappear into the ether with nothing other than an automated response for weeks.
When a response did come back it would often be one of the following
- not a bug this is how its supposed to work (e.g. being able to move a midi clip into an audio track!)
- a local issue - something to do with my PC (see point above re: my rig)
Do the dev and support teams actually talk about defects? Before going back to the user - someone in cakewalk should be thinking - hang on - being able to move a midi clip into an audio track just doesn't make sense - I know it works as specificed but lets get that sorted because it's illogical - not just kick it back with 'this is how its intended to work' crap.
X2 was so pathetically unstable I had to shell out £400 for Cubase 7 - in contrast - I have had 6 point releases which included lots of bug fixes and enhancements. I have not had one crash that time (on the same rig).
There is constant dialogue between Steinberg staff and the user community. They have produced an amazing product. Just compare audio quantisation or tempo detection in both and its laughable - similarly scoring, mp3 support out the box, built in audio editor - its just not even in the same ballpark right now.
Anyway the purpose of this rant (apart form making me feel better :-) is to raise the point that its not just about products.If it was Sonar would have lost a long time ago.
Its about having ongoing support, a culture and the feeling that the community is being listened to, bugs are being squashed, and products enhanced.
I want Cakewalk to find its soul again. It used to be innovative and so ahead of the game - but its fallen behind - pursuing less essential features (like touch) - whilst long overdue features such as scoring and audiosnap remain unchanged in years! Sonar needs to play catch up in so many, many areas, with limited resources it has to be absolutely on the ball and focused. Forget the fluff.
Despite my moaning lol - I haven't actually given up on Sonar yet - why - because I've been a loyal customer for over a decade, I am a supporter and I don't give up that easily - but if I am to switch back full time, I need to see evidence of the old culture of Cakewalk re-emerging. The spunky upstart who destroyed the old guard. Presonus appear to be taking on that mantle now.
I want to see a commitment to catch up and overtake the competition (where's the roadmap guys?), fix the product continuously between major releases, and be completely open about its intentions.
Sonar's main attractions to me are its amazing workflow, single window paradigm (cusbase it a nightmare on that front lol) and this community. With a bit of TLC it could be absolutely amazing.
and..
brreathe
Now... when is X3 coming out :)
I see several bug reports from you with extremely minimal and vague details. Some of them were feature requests, but many of them responded with the suggestion to contact technical support. If your report is as short as "Sluggish behavior" (random example but some of these reports were that minimal in details), then the Problem Report isn't the proper place for getting help, Technical Support is. The goal of the Problem Report form is to capture bugs. "Sluggish behavior" isn't a bug. The Problem Report form isn't our system for direct interaction regarding getting assistance (it states this multiple times when filling out the form). While I'm sure you realized that at the time of filling out the reports, the point of the automated replies was to suggest that the issues being reported would be better handled by someone who can help versus a bug tracking system. The Problem Reports that we did ask for more details from the Problem Report system were not given replies. When I look at the tickets you sent in to support I only see two tickets that were download related and resolved. I do not see any tickets regarding the issues you were reporting. In other words, it doesn't look like the suggestion to contact support was met with any action on your part. Support is here to help, but we need to be give the proper chance. In this case, it doesn't seem like anyone was. I don't mean to call you out on this, but I only see two emails to tech support about unrelated issues and zero calls. Suggesting we don't have a proper support system in place is extremely far from the truth. We help countless customers with the types of issues you were reporting all day, every day. You're twisting this story to sound as if we're not properly supporting customers, but all I'm seeing are problem reports with extremely short, vague details regarding your experience.
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dubdisciple
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/27 13:39:40
(permalink)
"buggy" is one of the most misused words on these forums. There are lots of things I don't like but I would hardly call them bugs. For me, when I upgrade, i ask myself "will this improve my workflow enough to make me more money than if i did not upgrade". Considering just a two hour net decrease in man hours over the course of a year makes that answer yes, upgrading is likely a yes. I'm not sure what criteria others use, but I think those on the fence should find that fundamental question that simplifies things. It beats the hell out of wild speculation on hypothetical BS.
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JenksTer
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/27 14:08:42
(permalink)
Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]
dorism
As an old timer (sonar 1 user) my experiences with X2 and X2a have made me really sceptical about Sonar and Cakewalk
X2 was stillborn as far as I'm concerned. A complete waste of time and money. On my rig (Z series HP workstation as recommended by Cakewalk!) - it exhibited absolutely dire stability.
If you were one of the unlucky one's to be afflicted by the 'graphical bugs' talked about at length on here, then you were on your own. It was actually embarrassing using X2 with clients as they could see the tracks flicker and the clips jumping around when I moved them. toe curling doesn't do it justice. It never got fixed and workarounds had to be implemented.
Even worse - X2 would crash so badly the fault reporter would get bypassed and you could be left with a corrupted project.
When bugs were reported they could disappear into the ether with nothing other than an automated response for weeks.
When a response did come back it would often be one of the following
- not a bug this is how its supposed to work (e.g. being able to move a midi clip into an audio track!)
- a local issue - something to do with my PC (see point above re: my rig)
Do the dev and support teams actually talk about defects? Before going back to the user - someone in cakewalk should be thinking - hang on - being able to move a midi clip into an audio track just doesn't make sense - I know it works as specificed but lets get that sorted because it's illogical - not just kick it back with 'this is how its intended to work' crap.
X2 was so pathetically unstable I had to shell out £400 for Cubase 7 - in contrast - I have had 6 point releases which included lots of bug fixes and enhancements. I have not had one crash that time (on the same rig).
There is constant dialogue between Steinberg staff and the user community. They have produced an amazing product. Just compare audio quantisation or tempo detection in both and its laughable - similarly scoring, mp3 support out the box, built in audio editor - its just not even in the same ballpark right now.
Anyway the purpose of this rant (apart form making me feel better :-) is to raise the point that its not just about products.If it was Sonar would have lost a long time ago.
Its about having ongoing support, a culture and the feeling that the community is being listened to, bugs are being squashed, and products enhanced.
I want Cakewalk to find its soul again. It used to be innovative and so ahead of the game - but its fallen behind - pursuing less essential features (like touch) - whilst long overdue features such as scoring and audiosnap remain unchanged in years! Sonar needs to play catch up in so many, many areas, with limited resources it has to be absolutely on the ball and focused. Forget the fluff.
Despite my moaning lol - I haven't actually given up on Sonar yet - why - because I've been a loyal customer for over a decade, I am a supporter and I don't give up that easily - but if I am to switch back full time, I need to see evidence of the old culture of Cakewalk re-emerging. The spunky upstart who destroyed the old guard. Presonus appear to be taking on that mantle now.
I want to see a commitment to catch up and overtake the competition (where's the roadmap guys?), fix the product continuously between major releases, and be completely open about its intentions.
Sonar's main attractions to me are its amazing workflow, single window paradigm (cusbase it a nightmare on that front lol) and this community. With a bit of TLC it could be absolutely amazing.
and..
brreathe
Now... when is X3 coming out :)
I see several bug reports from you with extremely minimal and vague details. Some of them were feature requests, but many of them responded with the suggestion to contact technical support. If your report is as short as "Sluggish behavior" (random example but some of these reports were that minimal in details), then the Problem Report isn't the proper place for getting help, Technical Support is. The goal of the Problem Report form is to capture bugs. "Sluggish behavior" isn't a bug. The Problem Report form isn't our system for direct interaction regarding getting assistance (it states this multiple times when filling out the form). While I'm sure you realized that at the time of filling out the reports, the point of the automated replies was to suggest that the issues being reported would be better handled by someone who can help versus a bug tracking system.
The Problem Reports that we did ask for more details from the Problem Report system were not given replies.
When I look at the tickets you sent in to support I only see two tickets that were download related and resolved. I do not see any tickets regarding the issues you were reporting. In other words, it doesn't look like the suggestion to contact support was met with any action on your part.
Support is here to help, but we need to be give the proper chance. In this case, it doesn't seem like anyone was. I don't mean to call you out on this, but I only see two emails to tech support about unrelated issues and zero calls. Suggesting we don't have a proper support system in place is extremely far from the truth. We help countless customers with the types of issues you were reporting all day, every day. You're twisting this story to sound as if we're not properly supporting customers, but all I'm seeing are problem reports with extremely short, vague details regarding your experience.
Ryan, Your avatar; is that your take on all Cakewalk users who express (justifiable) disconent over X2? Dorism's points seemed wholly legit and I too have been plagued with X2's 'gimmicks'. If I were Cakewalk I'd be sobbing my little heart out over how many long time users are unhappy about X2.
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/27 14:28:20
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk] 2013/09/27 14:35:17
JenksTer
Ryan,
Your avatar; is that your take on all Cakewalk users who express (justifiable) disconent over X2? Dorism's points seemed wholly legit and I too have been plagued with X2's 'gimmicks'. If I were Cakewalk I'd be sobbing my little heart out over how many long time users are unhappy about X2.
It's lighthearted humor. Anyone who has ever worked with me knows how passionately I care about helping people out and digging into complicated issues. We all need to have some fun at our jobs. Please don't put words in my mouth or attempt to project that I scoff at user issues. I did not suggest that people's concerns were not valid. I've never suggested that. I've helped tens of thousands of customers in my time here at Cakewalk and genuinely enjoy it. I think you're picking on the wrong person for the sake of trying to prove a point. If there is anyone in the company who genuinely cares about user experiences, it's me. For the past 5 years I've my life I've spent 70+ hours a week supporting customers and students with using and troubleshooting music software. This isn't exactly just my job, it's my life. The point of my interaction on this post was to identify that we're here to support people and that stating that we're not is inaccurate and should be cleared up. There is a lot of misinformation in this thread. It is very inaccurate regarding how hard we all work to support customers day to day and throughout the entirety of a product's life cycle. I've said it time and time again, but spreading misinformation like this is NOT helpful to anyone. It misinforms newcomers to the products and misdirects them for where they can go to get help. Any long time user should know by now that the best thing we can all do to help one another is work together with the systems we have in place. Anyhow, getting back to the Avatar, perhaps I should photoshop a smiley face on it?
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cparmerlee
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/27 14:31:12
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☄ Helpfulby Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk] 2013/09/27 14:34:02
dubdisciple
Considering just a two hour net decrease in man hours over the course of a year makes that answer yes, upgrading is likely a yes.
THIS !!! We're over-thinking this, people. If we were talking a $10,000 cost, then a hot debate would make sense. The releases are a no-brainer in ROI. Yes, maybe there are some bugs / irritants / rough spots / inelegant flows that are not magnificently solved with X3. It is clear that a great many things ARE dealt with. I don't produce recordings for a living, yet, I can easily see $150 of added revenue over 12 months. And I can see much more than that if I place a value on the time I will save. I see 15 or 20 projects where I'll use Melodyne fairly actively, and I know that I'll save at least 30 minutes and a lot of aggravation on each one of those.
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djwayne
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/27 14:36:34
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After my experiences with Adobe taking over Cool Edit, I want to get the last version of Sonar X__ before Gibson and Tascam get in there and muck it all up.
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dorism
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/27 14:42:09
(permalink)
JenksTer
Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]
dorism
As an old timer (sonar 1 user) my experiences with X2 and X2a have made me really sceptical about Sonar and Cakewalk
X2 was stillborn as far as I'm concerned. A complete waste of time and money. On my rig (Z series HP workstation as recommended by Cakewalk!) - it exhibited absolutely dire stability.
If you were one of the unlucky one's to be afflicted by the 'graphical bugs' talked about at length on here, then you were on your own. It was actually embarrassing using X2 with clients as they could see the tracks flicker and the clips jumping around when I moved them. toe curling doesn't do it justice. It never got fixed and workarounds had to be implemented.
Even worse - X2 would crash so badly the fault reporter would get bypassed and you could be left with a corrupted project.
When bugs were reported they could disappear into the ether with nothing other than an automated response for weeks.
When a response did come back it would often be one of the following
- not a bug this is how its supposed to work (e.g. being able to move a midi clip into an audio track!)
- a local issue - something to do with my PC (see point above re: my rig)
Do the dev and support teams actually talk about defects? Before going back to the user - someone in cakewalk should be thinking - hang on - being able to move a midi clip into an audio track just doesn't make sense - I know it works as specificed but lets get that sorted because it's illogical - not just kick it back with 'this is how its intended to work' crap.
X2 was so pathetically unstable I had to shell out £400 for Cubase 7 - in contrast - I have had 6 point releases which included lots of bug fixes and enhancements. I have not had one crash that time (on the same rig).
There is constant dialogue between Steinberg staff and the user community. They have produced an amazing product. Just compare audio quantisation or tempo detection in both and its laughable - similarly scoring, mp3 support out the box, built in audio editor - its just not even in the same ballpark right now.
Anyway the purpose of this rant (apart form making me feel better :-) is to raise the point that its not just about products.If it was Sonar would have lost a long time ago.
Its about having ongoing support, a culture and the feeling that the community is being listened to, bugs are being squashed, and products enhanced.
I want Cakewalk to find its soul again. It used to be innovative and so ahead of the game - but its fallen behind - pursuing less essential features (like touch) - whilst long overdue features such as scoring and audiosnap remain unchanged in years! Sonar needs to play catch up in so many, many areas, with limited resources it has to be absolutely on the ball and focused. Forget the fluff.
Despite my moaning lol - I haven't actually given up on Sonar yet - why - because I've been a loyal customer for over a decade, I am a supporter and I don't give up that easily - but if I am to switch back full time, I need to see evidence of the old culture of Cakewalk re-emerging. The spunky upstart who destroyed the old guard. Presonus appear to be taking on that mantle now.
I want to see a commitment to catch up and overtake the competition (where's the roadmap guys?), fix the product continuously between major releases, and be completely open about its intentions.
Sonar's main attractions to me are its amazing workflow, single window paradigm (cusbase it a nightmare on that front lol) and this community. With a bit of TLC it could be absolutely amazing.
and..
brreathe
Now... when is X3 coming out :)
I see several bug reports from you with extremely minimal and vague details. Some of them were feature requests, but many of them responded with the suggestion to contact technical support. If your report is as short as "Sluggish behavior" (random example but some of these reports were that minimal in details), then the Problem Report isn't the proper place for getting help, Technical Support is. The goal of the Problem Report form is to capture bugs. "Sluggish behavior" isn't a bug. The Problem Report form isn't our system for direct interaction regarding getting assistance (it states this multiple times when filling out the form). While I'm sure you realized that at the time of filling out the reports, the point of the automated replies was to suggest that the issues being reported would be better handled by someone who can help versus a bug tracking system.
The Problem Reports that we did ask for more details from the Problem Report system were not given replies.
When I look at the tickets you sent in to support I only see two tickets that were download related and resolved. I do not see any tickets regarding the issues you were reporting. In other words, it doesn't look like the suggestion to contact support was met with any action on your part.
Support is here to help, but we need to be give the proper chance. In this case, it doesn't seem like anyone was. I don't mean to call you out on this, but I only see two emails to tech support about unrelated issues and zero calls. Suggesting we don't have a proper support system in place is extremely far from the truth. We help countless customers with the types of issues you were reporting all day, every day. You're twisting this story to sound as if we're not properly supporting customers, but all I'm seeing are problem reports with extremely short, vague details regarding your experience.
Ryan,
Your avatar; is that your take on all Cakewalk users who express (justifiable) disconent over X2? Dorism's points seemed wholly legit and I too have been plagued with X2's 'gimmicks'. If I were Cakewalk I'd be sobbing my little heart out over how many long time users are unhappy about X2.
With the greatest respect I am filling in bug forms for your product which should work. But doesn't. I'm doing this in my own time. I think the 'bugs' the had been discussed in huge detail already on the forum. None of this should be a surprise to anyone at Cakewalk. The response should have been 'duplicate' ticket. Fix on the way. Moving midi into an audio track of vice Verse. Try it out yourself for goodness sake. Its standard behaviour and baffling. If there was a good reason for designing it like this then that would merit a decent response. The reasreason I filed them was out of frustration that nothing had been done to address those concerns. Throwing my hat into the ring so to speak rather than sitting here moaning about it I wanted to do something about proactive. 'calling out' the a customer in a public forum when they have invested heavily in your products and trying to participate to make your product better is not a wise move. See my point about culture.
www.thehadroncollider.co.uk
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John T
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/27 14:45:03
(permalink)
He's saying he can help if you explain the problems properly, and can't if you don't. And you know, that's just how everything is.
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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dorism
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/27 14:46:59
(permalink)
What is technical support's non us number? I'll call them this weekend
www.thehadroncollider.co.uk
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John T
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/27 14:47:07
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Actually Ryan, while you're reading this thread, I just thought to myself I could do with a sandwich. And did you bring me one? Did you hell. Here I sit, no sandwich. Call yourself "support"? It's a joke. A JOKE.
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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John T
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/27 14:48:22
(permalink)
dorism
What is technical support's non us number? I'll call them this weekend
They don't have one. The company is based in Boston.
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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dorism
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/27 14:56:17
(permalink)
Disco.. So I'm paying international calls charges for a product which doesn't work. Don't think so.
See its that culture thing again!
It's all academic in any case. There was never another patch for x2.
www.thehadroncollider.co.uk
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/27 14:57:54
(permalink)
dorism
With the greatest respect I am filling in bug forms for your product which should work.
But doesn't.
I'm doing this in my own time. I think the 'bugs' the had been discussed in huge detail already on the forum. None of this should be a surprise to anyone at Cakewalk. The response should have been 'duplicate' ticket. Fix on the way. Moving midi into an audio track of vice Verse. Try it out yourself for goodness sake. Its standard behaviour and baffling. If there was a good reason for designing it like this then that would merit a decent response.
The reasreason I filed them was out of frustration that nothing had been done to address those concerns. Throwing my hat into the ring so to speak rather than sitting here moaning about it I wanted to do something about proactive. 'calling out' the a customer in a public forum when they have invested heavily in your products and trying to participate to make your product better is not a wise move. See my point about culture.
If we wanted to make it a private conversation you could have PMed me with your frustrations. I was trying to suggest that I'm not trying to call you out, but that everyone is ganging up suggesting nothing is being done to address customer concerns is not correct for two reasons. This thread is mostly bashing Cakewalk and Cakewalk support publicly, so I'm here to defend it. The first being that some concerns are system & user specific. Developers can't fix those issues, Technical Support can. In those cases, we can help and so yes we can address these concerns. The other being that the concerns that people are referencing and have been for a long time, well we haven't even begun to fully discuss SONAR X3 yet. I think you'll be shocked to find out that a huge part of this release IS addressing the biggest customer concerns. In fact, that's exactly what we've done based on tons of feedback (phone calls, emails, bug reports, beta team, artists, engineers, forums, surveys, etc.). Anyhow, I know at the end of the day you probably just want help and most likely our systems were confusing. I am sorry if that was the case. We're always trying to improve it and so your frustration with the system tells me we need to improve it yet even more. That's okay. This is the reply to most of your problem reports: The status of your problem report has updated to "Contact Tech Support" with the following notes:The problem you are experiencing is most likely a system specific problem or a configuration issue that we believe can be resolved with assistance from Cakewalk Technical Support. Unfortunately, as explained in the Problem Report Form, this form does not put you in direct contact with our support staff.Please contact our support team at http://www.cakewalk.com/support/email or at (617) 423-9021 Mon-Fri 1:00 pm to 6:00 pm EST so that we can assist you in resolving the issue you are experiencing. You can review our full contact information at http://www.cakewalk.com/support Currently outside of the US support is handled by your local distributor if you're trying to call in. The link above does provide direct access to email Technical Support as well. I hope that helps to clarify.
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/27 14:58:38
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby dorism 2013/09/27 15:54:04
dorism
Disco.. So I'm paying international calls charges for a product which doesn't work. Don't think so.
See its that culture thing again!
It's all academic in any case. There was never another patch for x2.
Speaking of culture, we don't charge for Technical Support though, which most competitors do and do a lot.
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John T
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/27 14:59:43
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It's not "that culture thing". It's just that Cakewalk don't pay your phone bill for you. Your position here is that you don't want to fill out comprehensible bug reports and you don't want to phone in. Hence my telepathic sandwich order joke. Seriously, the thing that you want doesn't exist not never nohow and never will. I'd start coming to peace with how reality works if I was you.
post edited by John T - 2013/09/27 15:07:24
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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John T
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/27 15:01:47
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I've just looked it up, and UK to US calls on BT are 19p a min daytimes, 13p a min in the evenings. How onerous is this, really?
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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dorism
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/27 15:08:57
(permalink)
Ryan - just to reset here. This is not a dig at you or the support teams per se and apologies if my frustration come across like this - you're right this may have been better as a PM! For what its worth you have always been really supportive on the forum and its clear to me how passionate you are. This is why I haven't completely ditched Sonar. I actually still believe that there are good people there who care and I put you as one of them. Cakewalk in my mind is based in Boston- it's soul and people are there but outside the US I view you as an international company. I buy direct from Cakewalk store. You are my supplier. Time zone, and call charges are obvious barriers to support. Is there anything innovate which could be done here? Maybe use Google + hangouts or something? Honestly - trying to describe the problems is genuinely difficult. It would be easier to show you it. Anyway. Time to crack open a cold one! :) I'll keep the rest a PM. Please note - despite how it may come across I am trying to be constructive. Its probably my Scottish demeanour 
www.thehadroncollider.co.uk
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dorism
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/27 15:57:01
(permalink)
John T
It's not "that culture thing". It's just that Cakewalk don't pay your phone bill for you.
Your position here is that you don't want to fill out comprehensible bug reports and you don't want to phone in. Hence my telepathic sandwich order joke. Seriously, the thing that you want doesn't exist not never nohow and never will. I'd start coming to peace with how reality works if I was you.
Mate - you try describing the carzy sh1t I see happening on X2 and Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]
dorism
Ryan - just to reset here. This is not a dig at you or the support teams per se and apologies if my frustration come across like this - you're right this may have been better as a PM! For what its worth you have always been really supportive on the forum and its clear to me how passionate you are.
This is why I haven't completely ditched Sonar. I actually still believe that there are good people there who care and I put you as one of them.
Cakewalk in my mind is based in Boston- it's soul and people are there but outside the US I view you as an international company. I buy direct from Cakewalk store. You are my supplier. Time zone, and call charges are obvious barriers to support. Is there anything innovate which could be done here? Maybe use Google + hangouts or something? Honestly - trying to describe the problems is genuinely difficult. It would be easier to show you it.
Anyway. Time to crack open a cold one! :)
I'll keep the rest a PM. Please note - despite how it may come across I am trying to be constructive. Its probably my Scottish demeanour
Thanks for following up. I apologize as well if coming off defensive. I'd crack a cold one open with you right now were we together. I'm not sure I'd be able to troubleshoot any issues at that point though
Exactly - but by that time who'd care!
www.thehadroncollider.co.uk
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djtrailmixxx
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Re: I want an X2b - NOT X3 for MORE money!!
2013/09/27 16:07:08
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby dorism 2013/09/27 16:47:41
Dorism,
Can you use Google Voice or Skype calls? I'm not sure if that is a viable or affordable option for you. There must be a free option somewhere.
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