John
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/16 16:03:32
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Just as a matter of interest what does everyone do with their left hands while editing data/clips etc?
Are you sure you really want an answer to this? 
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Kroneborge
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/16 16:18:36
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Just as a matter of interest what does everyone do with their left hands while editing data/clips etc?
You don't want to know.
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jm24
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/16 16:55:51
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Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha,.....
Great contributions to the conversation.
What are your mental ages?
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/16 17:05:45
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Spare a thought for those of us that don't use mice, hence no middle mouse button so don't go assigning too much to that. At least I can get to the HUD via a keypress.
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Kroneborge
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/16 19:08:08
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jm24
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha,.....
Great contributions to the conversation.
What are your mental ages?
First, sometimes the best contribution to a conversation is a little bit of humor. Second, my mental age is somewhere between 5-10. Which is probably where it will stay. TYVM.
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Corling
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/16 20:42:34
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Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
FastBikerBoy
Am I missing something here? What could be done using the S, D, E tools in 8.5 that can't be done in X1 using the smart tool and/or the tools remapped to those buttons if you don't like the F-key mappings?
Anyone?
Yes this is the key point I'm apparently failing to understand. Some folks keep talking about how they need to switch quickly between S, D, and E. But why?
How on this green earth is it faster to hit S to select something and then have to hit D to add notes or extend and then have to hit E to erase something - when you could just do it without having to hit any keys at all. I love FPS games and am very very comfortable with ASWD - but I wouldn't want to need to stretch to that level simply to do simple MIDI editing that is possible to perform with a single tool. You shouldn't need to switch quickly between Draw and Select - the same tool should do both.
In 8.5 the Select tool was already headed this way in that you could hold ALT to temporarily make it function like the Draw tool. If you used the PRV configuration tool you could take it further and make one tool do just about anything. Now in X1 it does it out of the box and it's consistent across all views.
And not to mention you can easily reassign the Draw tool to D and the Select tool to S, etc if you really want to. It takes seconds.
Now this discussion has encompassed a number of other issues, but can we all just get past this one at least? Why is it necessary to have certain hotkeys to switch between three different tools simply to select, draw and erase?
As the original poster, let me respond to this exact inquiry. Sonar X1's current "smart tool" mechanic is to double-click to draw. I find it much, much faster to hit "D" to draw and single-click than to double-click with the smart tool. This is a major difference on which the entire Sonar experience of people who draw in the piano roll view hinges -- double-click-to-draw with the "smart" tool is NOT as fast as keybind+single-click-to-draw -- especially if you draw a lot of staccato counterpoint, arpeggios, or do a lot of "experimentation" of drawing something and hearing how it sounds on repeated playbacks from the "now" marker. As a binding "D" is better than an F-key because it is close to other basic Sonar key bindings like the space bar (Play), W (return to start of project), CTRL functions like CTRL+A, etc. The high-numeral F-keys are absolutey cumbersome tool-change bindings because they can't be quickly accessed by the left hand. The other major factor that has been brought up here is how immensely important remembering the last note duration in any draw tool, whether it's the smart tool or the main draw tool, is to many who do a lot of piano roll drawing. As I've already explained, a big reason for this is that many virtual instruments (e.g. horns, some pads) do not trigger sounds in ways that qualitatively line up with MIDI note boundaries -- so the ability to quickly access a previous note duration and velocity that just "worked" is extremely important. Though I appreciate your good intentions Brandon -- these are two factors that you do not seem to have appreciated as life-changing; the fact that double-click-to-draw is not acceptable in any tool for a lot of users nor is having to manually configure the note duration-velocity rather than remembering it from the last note selected. This may help explain the overall affection by many for Sonar 8.5's piano roll control scheme.
post edited by Corling - 2011/03/16 20:44:26
Sonar X1c / Intel i7-980x / Windows 7 64-bit / 16GB RAM / Intel SSDs For OS and Project Drives / RME Fireface 800 Interface
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lorneyb2
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/16 20:56:57
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Not what you are looking for till we get a fix with remembering last note but may help with repetitive defined notes. Holding down the control key allows you to drag a clone to your next note location. It performs the same basic function albeit you have to reclick the last note again but is still quicker than readjusting note lengths.
Also with repetitive phrases/chords you can select with the lasoo in smart tool and then hold the control to drag/clone the phrase/chord to the next location.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/16 21:05:11
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Hi Brandon, I can answer that as well. I can hit S, D, or E or any other letter without even looking at the keyboard. I can hit the F keys too but because I don't use F keys as often as regular typing I still have to occasionally look down. Regardless of hot key choice once the command is selected I can hack through want I want to do as fast as possible and I never have to watch the smart tool get confused about what I want to do with my cursor. I can approach the note or the area I want to draw from any angle and work blazingly fast. Bang. It's even more useful to have a dedicated function activated when you are zoomed out and the notes are very small. The smart tool is ok for futzing around after the real work is done. It's such a simple concept, and it's been repeated by many of us... but when someone in your position doesn't want to believe it... it is evidently unbelievable.
It is exceedingly tedious to have to explain the obvious over and over again, but I believe repetition is the key to familiarity so I'll persist if you'll allow. A few weeks ago many of us applauded Theodor Kruger's example of how fast one can work in SONAR's PRV and some of us got a load of bad attitude as a response from Cakewalk. I opined that I thought the response was "pitiful". Several years ago you were featured in a video and you made a killer drum track lightning fast. Many viewers were absolutely mystified at your accomplishment. I joked with you that I knew your secret and you responded... "yes, lot's of practice" and we seemed to enjoy sharing a moment of understanding. I miss those good times. SONAR is, of course, a sequencer... SONAR's PRV used to be the most powerful in the business... it probably still is... but it seems like it is slowly being deprecated and I find that terribly disappointing. very best regards, mike < - THIS POST IS UNDER CONSTRUCTION - >
post edited by mike_mccue - 2011/03/16 21:10:45
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Corling
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/16 21:37:14
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lorneyb2
Not what you are looking for till we get a fix with remembering last note but may help with repetitive defined notes. Holding down the control key allows you to drag a clone to your next note location. It performs the same basic function albeit you have to reclick the last note again but is still quicker than readjusting note lengths.
Also with repetitive phrases/chords you can select with the lasoo in smart tool and then hold the control to drag/clone the phrase/chord to the next location.
Neither dragging and dropping a clone nor copy-pasting a cluster does anything to fix the flaws I outlined in reply #216. I guess it comes down to how you make music. You seem of a school of thought that music is planned, orderly, and always clear in your head before you input MIDI notes. I believe AMAZING MUSIC can happen by accident, by divine intervention, by making it as easy as possible to "poop with the mouse" all over the Piano Roll view and fine tune it. Poop 99 times and it may not work, but the 100th poop may be worth $50 million. It is very important that the Piano Roll view allows the user to "poop" notes very spontaneously, quickly, unencumbered, nonlinearly, and assymetrically using the mouse. In other words, the piano roll view mouse interface must be unencumbered and unrestricted enough as an extension of my body that it can be an instrument of glorious accidents. Sonar 8.5 was close to this. Sonar X1 constipated this fabulous flow for the reasons I have mentioned.
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keith
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/16 21:55:07
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Corling
It is very important that the Piano Roll view allows the user to "poop" notes very spontaneously, quickly, unencumbered, nonlinearly, and assymetrically using the mouse.
Ladies and gentlemen, I think this statement just about sums up the last 3 months of forum angst. I dare say it be submitted as a feature request, if, of course, it hasn't been already.
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Kroneborge
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/16 22:06:35
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Corling
lorneyb2
Not what you are looking for till we get a fix with remembering last note but may help with repetitive defined notes. Holding down the control key allows you to drag a clone to your next note location. It performs the same basic function albeit you have to reclick the last note again but is still quicker than readjusting note lengths.
Also with repetitive phrases/chords you can select with the lasoo in smart tool and then hold the control to drag/clone the phrase/chord to the next location.
Neither dragging and dropping a clone nor copy-pasting a cluster does anything to fix the flaws I outlined in reply #216.
I guess it comes down to how you make music.
You seem of a school of thought that music is planned, orderly, and always clear in your head before you input MIDI notes.
I believe AMAZING MUSIC can happen by accident, by divine intervention, by making it as easy as possible to "poop with the mouse" all over the Piano Roll view and fine tune it.
Poop 99 times and it may not work, but the 100th poop may be worth $50 million.
It is very important that the Piano Roll view allows the user to "poop" notes very spontaneously, quickly, unencumbered, nonlinearly, and assymetrically using the mouse.
In other words, the piano roll view mouse interface must be unencumbered and unrestricted enough as an extension of my body that it can be an instrument of glorious accidents.
Sonar 8.5 was close to this. Sonar X1 constipated this fabulous flow for the reasons I have mentioned.
This is abousloutly how I create, both when I play stuff in, and in the PRV. I just keep going till I get something that works. (poop 100 FTW)
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...wicked
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/16 22:17:35
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Corling
I believe AMAZING MUSIC can happen by accident, by divine intervention, by making it as easy as possible to "poop with the mouse" all over the Piano Roll view and fine tune it.
Poop 99 times and it may not work, but the 100th poop may be worth $50 million.
It is very important that the Piano Roll view allows the user to "poop" notes very spontaneously, quickly, unencumbered, nonlinearly, and assymetrically using the mouse.
You are officially my new favorite person of all time.
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UnderTow
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/16 22:18:27
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<rant>
This whole thread and thinking about X1's interface and the changes just makes me frustrated as it reminds me how many bad decisions were made and the fact that Cakewalk actually spent time and energy destroying so many good things that Sonar had.
I fully agree with PedalPoint, Corling and Mike (and a few others). X1's PRV (amongst other things) is slower and less efficient than previous versions of Sonar. By that I mean the maximum potential speed of using the tools in the fastest and most efficient way possible. (Including CTRL-TABing between views and having Sonar remembering which tool was selected in each view). I am quite sure (but of course can't prove) that most if not all the people that find X1 faster were never very fast in previous versions of Sonar.
I am not including Brandon in any grouping for obvious reasons. Anyway, he has agreed with most of the suggested changes needed to make the X1 tools more efficient again.
Frankly it would have been so easy to just change the default behaviour of the previous Select Tool (as it is tool 1) including some minute functionality tweaks so that it behaved like the current X1 Smart Tool (well hopefully better) and then Cakewalk wouldn't have had to throw away the years of development and fine tuning that culminated in the widely lauded previous PRV tool set. Cakewalk could have just renamed that previous Select Tool as the Smart Tool and the DAW 0.3b 2.0 proponents could have been happy.
There are glaring inconstancies in the GUI design goals. For instance all the regular tools have been heavily dumbed down to favour the Smart Tool. In other words, Cakewalk are encouraging people to use only the Smart Tool (No one really thinks one should keep changing Tools for every single action do they?) Yet Cakewalk don't combine tools that clearly go together like the Select and Move Tool and just for some nebulous not-yet-imagined-potential-future-enhancement. (Talk about misguided priorities. How about getting the existing tools and functionality right first?) In the process they waste screen real-estate, key-bindings, ease of use and efficiency. Some Tools are single mode like the Select Tool. Others are multi-mode like the Edit Tool. Note that I don't mean multi-function. For instance the Edit Tool can be switched between Trim, Timing and Split. In reality they are just single function ultra-dumb tools that happen to be grouped together. So we really have 8 dumb and extremely inefficient tools and 1 Smart Tool. This is a HIGHLY inefficient design.
Even the Smart Tool is not well designed as the middle mouse key is reserved for functionality that is only there to solve the major design flaws of X1. If the Edit Filter would have been an addition to the old Sonar behaviour (rather than the now typical and obvious dumbing down of existing features) and if the Note Length behaviour would work as before, the whole HUD would not even be needed. So we have a Smart Tool that is not customizable and has by default a button that can not be used for actual editing. (I think it would be much more elegant if the HUD would be partially built in to the right-click context menu (which itself needs cleaning and reorganising) but I guess the GUI libs/framework used for X1 don't allow that).
It is also glaringly obvious that whomever pulled their weight and decided that a DAW PRV editing tool should reflect Windows behaviour doesn't actually use these tools much if at all. At least I hope so or they are confusing theoretical niceties with actual good usable design. (And it is then worrying that they have any weight to pull at all).
And all this just because of some pie-in-the-sky ideal that does not actually reflect how most people work day to day with DAWs.
Cakewalk employees are quick to note that time and development resource are scarce. I suggest Cakewalk stop squandering them on bad ideas and redesigning stuff that actually worked.
Oh and btw, Arrow-up/down should move (a) note(s) up/down. SHIFT-arrow-up/down should move them up/down an octave. THAT would have been much better way to improve the PRV. Just a simple example. You've seen my feature suggestion list... it is huge and only really the a tiny start but as I never got any feedback from Cakewalk as to what they found interesting or not, I never bothered continuing. Clearly some people at Cakewalk think they know best even though many people are hugely disappointed in what they actually came up with. Yet despite all the complaints they still think they know best and are not really interested in outside suggestions despite what Brandon writes here in this thread. At least not the people making the actual decisions.
</rant>
UnderTow
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Bub 
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/16 22:40:18
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Anyone else think it's funny that there's 8 pages of text discussing two mouse clicks?
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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PedalPoint
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/16 22:48:00
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Bub
Anyone else think it's funny that there's 8 pages of text discussing two mouse clicks?
Holy crap are we nerdy
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aeosus
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/16 22:49:00
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Hi all. Chiming in from a piano player, midi perspective. I think I've mentioned on this forum that I do a ton of bread-and-butter, pay-the-bills, very-uncreative work creating accompaniment tracks for voice studios.
Get the music, record the midi, edit, enter, fix, render through software synths, get feedback from client, adjust tempi and arrangement and render again and send out final version.
I too have found my workflow degraded in PRV and staff view for many of the reasons stated in this thread.
But, I am also willing to admit that I am probably a dinosaur and that the new work flow just isn't clicking for my reptilian brain. I do most of this work late at night because I am a very busy HS music teacher (choir/theory/tech) during the day and a private piano instructor in the afternoons/evenings and I really haven't had the time to thoroughly experiment with workflow . . . I just need to get stuff done. SO, maybe this summer . . .
Unrelated:
1. The dock has grown on me. Hated it at first, but I am no longer angrily undocking windows.
2. Sonar Plus is also a help.
3. Snap is murder. Heart-wrenching. Hell. Sadness.
4. The music lab at my high school has Sonar 4 (budget cuts . . . .). No kidding. Brain often hurts when I go home. Sonar 4 to 8.5 at home was easy. Sonar 4 to X1 is like something from A Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.
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jm24
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/16 22:51:43
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No not funny. Sad that it takes this much time just to address one of the obvious deformaties in SX.
About another 99 to go.
Better start a thread about why it is now so difficult to change note duration values.
Whose idea was it to press C-S-#?
And why move the buttons with visual feedback to a dropdown that requires an extra click? Oh yeah, clutter, and confusion.
Okay, now only 98 more issues, at least 8 pages each,....
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trimph1
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/16 22:59:18
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The GUI Minimalists have taken over!!! At least they left some colour to the thing..can you picture the thing in neutral colours?? 
post edited by trimph1 - 2011/03/16 23:00:36
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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...wicked
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/16 23:27:07
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I don't recall their being a large amount of folks who made thorough use of the customizable actions last version. I certainly fall into that camp.
But, after using the Smart Tool for a little bit I can see now how being able to customize would be very helpful to my workflow.
As it is, the biggest problem I have with it is the hot zones for stretch and move, which I'd love to adjust to my preferences.
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cornieleous
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/17 00:13:03
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Kroneborge
jm24
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha,.....
Great contributions to the conversation.
What are your mental ages?
First, sometimes the best contribution to a conversation is a little bit of humor.
Second, my mental age is somewhere between 5-10. Which is probably where it will stay.
TYVM.
I thought it was hilarious. One of the more classy posts in this thread, and I mean that. To the topic: I cannot say enough times that for creative people, you will never please them all with one way of doing things. So don't force us to use one way! Give us a couple options. Allow us to customize the smart tool, and make certain things about the PRV optional. Why alienate different types of user by styling your entire program and interface towards one or another type of workflow? And who makes the arbitrary choice of how the interface should work? If Cakewalk wants to eliminate all this angst and debate, and people questioning their direction and quality with this and future releases, I think they would be wise to never again make drastic change (like for example removing separate snap grids in TV and PRV) without making the change an OPTIONAL part of the interface. There are a couple up and coming brands who may look semi pro now and be missing a few key features, but some of these other DAWs are unbelievably customizeable and powerful - just not yet friendly out of the box. Add some nicer graphics and get the community involved in 'presets' for that type of interface, and you can literally have the perfect DAW, and so can I - even if our ways of working are totally different. And for those who are too lazy or just don't want to customize, that is where the 'presets' come in. Seems simple enough to me that for a bit of extra development and support effort, we can all have what we want. I hope Cakewalk gets the trend and does not rest on traditional development thought, but explores some of these other opportunities. In fact up until X1, it seemed like they were heading towards more customizations and options, then the new rigid interface showed up. Anyway, enough. I'm not saying anything new and there are musical "pooplets" to deposit on the piano roll. D
post edited by cornieleous - 2011/03/17 00:15:28
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/17 00:13:23
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I just want you all to know that I do indeed understand some of the valid points brought up here. Some further customizations and tool tweaks should be made to have the best workflow yet, for the largest group of people. I believe X1 was a necessary start and I maintain that there are areas where it makes things better...especially when you consider how the tools work over the whole program and not just the PRV itself. And I still think it works quite well in general and is a better base to develop from. But is it perfect? No. Is it a small step backward for some? I could see how it is. So - you all have my word that I will make sure these concerns get acknowledged and addressed in any way reasonably possible. I know I'm going out on a limb, but that's ok...I don't mind at all. I'll kick and scream if I have to...I've done it before (okay lots)...and believe me when I say nobody really likes it all that much when I kick and scream.
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/17 00:21:23
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PedalPoint
Bub
Anyone else think it's funny that there's 8 pages of text discussing two mouse clicks?
Holy crap are we nerdy
LOL!
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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cornieleous
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/17 00:32:06
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Frankly it would have been so easy to just change the default behaviour of the previous Select Tool (as it is tool 1) including some minute functionality tweaks so that it behaved like the current X1 Smart Tool (well hopefully better) and then Cakewalk wouldn't have had to throw away the years of development and fine tuning that culminated in the widely lauded previous PRV tool set. Cakewalk could have just renamed that previous Select Tool as the Smart Tool and the DAW 0.3b 2.0 proponents could have been happy. I have to agree strongly with this not just regarding the smart tool, but as a general philosophy - I would rather have seen careful tweaks to bring things together to a consistent and polished interface, rather than a reinvention of the wheel that has not been pulled off very smoothly. To me X1 feels like one great step forward but two back. Having said that, we are where we are, and I hope Cakewalk is listening to what we want and need moving forward. It seems like they are, and I have some amount of faith, but I think actions will speak most loudly when X2 shows up. I have (mostly) finished complaining or trying to convince anyone of anything around here (excepting advocating customization) and simply gotten back to making music with 8.5.3 and other tools. Been much happier for it than struggling with an interface that slows me down. I can say though that the X1 experience, after paying my money out every year for the last 10+ years, has made me cautious. I will be much more conservative with my wallet when future versions of Sonar are available until I can check under the hood, so to speak. EDIT: By the way Brandon, I've told you before, and I know that you know it - but you rock! Great ambassador for Cakewalk.
post edited by cornieleous - 2011/03/17 00:34:09
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gothic.angel
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/17 06:16:16
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Mike_Mccue SONAR is, of course, a sequencer... SONAR's PRV used to be the most powerful in the business... it probably still is... but it seems like it is slowly being deprecated and I find that terribly disappointing.
Jm24 And why move the buttons with visual feedback to a dropdown that requires an extra click?
UnderTow
I fully agree with PedalPoint, Corling and Mike (and a few others). X1's PRV (amongst other things) is slower and less efficient than previous versions of Sonar. By that I mean the maximum potential speed of using the tools in the fastest and most efficient way possible.
Corling
It is very important that the Piano Roll view allows the user to "poop" notes very spontaneously, quickly, unencumbered, nonlinearly, and assymetrically using the mouse.
In other words, the piano roll view mouse interface must be unencumbered and unrestricted enough as an extension of my body that it can be an instrument of glorious accidents.
Sonar 8.5 was close to this. Sonar X1 constipated this fabulous flow for the reasons I have mentioned.
Thanks guys... for hitting THE points MANY of us feel close to our hearts... really......
Regards.
GothicAngeL - EBM - Dark Electronics______________________________SONAR Platinum ∞, Rapture ProSAMPLITUDE X3 Pro Suite, FL Studio 12, Reason 10
_________________________________________ DELL Dimension E521 - AMD 64X2 - Windows 10 Pro_________________________________________ Proud "Apple's i-STUFF" Worst Enemy...
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/17 06:44:53
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Thanks for taking the time to be considerate of everyone's feedback Brandon!!!
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PedalPoint
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/17 08:28:48
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Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
I just want you all to know that I do indeed understand some of the valid points brought up here. Some further customizations and tool tweaks should be made to have the best workflow yet, for the largest group of people. I believe X1 was a necessary start and I maintain that there are areas where it makes things better...especially when you consider how the tools work over the whole program and not just the PRV itself. And I still think it works quite well in general and is a better base to develop from. But is it perfect? No. Is it a small step backward for some? I could see how it is.
So - you all have my word that I will make sure these concerns get acknowledged and addressed in any way reasonably possible. I know I'm going out on a limb, but that's ok...I don't mind at all. I'll kick and scream if I have to...I've done it before (okay lots)...and believe me when I say nobody really likes it all that much when I kick and scream.
That's all I wanted to hear! Our man at Cakewalk, kicking and screaming on our behalf. I don't have a problem with everything not being perfect in X1. I rarely get things perfect the first time I try something new. The important thing is to keep moving forward (which sometimes involves moving a little bit backwards by the way). This is a great thread and most of the important points have been made at least seven or eight times. I think the most important conclusion we can draw from the last eight pages of text is that Sonar-users are very diverse. Some of us like to compose directly into the PRV, some of us like to record our music with a controller and then edit, some of us don't use a mouse(?), some of us like to use a lot of key-bindings, some of us don't like to use a lot of key-bindings, some of us need to have one hand free for, erhm, holding the guitar and stuff. I could go on. And I don't think our different preferences only stems from the fact that we are grumpy, independently minded, difficult to work with, musicians (even though that certainly doesn't help), but also that we have completely different needs. Sonar is supposed to be used by everyone from amateur to pro, mixing engineers, song-writers, orchestral composers, covering every style of music imaginable. The only approach that is absolutely certain to fail is the one-method-fits-all approach. Regardless of the sometimes heated discussion in this thread, the only statement that I have yet to see anyone disagreeing with is the fact that I little more, or perhaps a lot more, customizability would be nice. Now, Brandon, I believe you have some kicking and screaming to do. 
post edited by PedalPoint - 2011/03/17 10:20:18
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/17 08:48:09
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some of us don't use a mouse(?),
I should point out that I do use a touchpad on both laptop and desktop, mainly because it's more space efficient, I have no easy space available for said mouse. and a spare left hand.........
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Corling
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/17 22:27:01
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Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
PedalPoint
Bub
Anyone else think it's funny that there's 8 pages of text discussing two mouse clicks?
Holy crap are we nerdy
LOL!
It's really not a laughing matter Brandon. It would be great to know that every Cakewalk employee shares the investment, reverence, intensity, passion, sacrifice and resolve to make Sonar as responsive as my diaphragm, my feet, my spine, my voice and my sweet errant thoughts are to the task of making important, world-changing, life-changing music. This calling should be your obsession, your religion, and your sole will and testemant--because it is for the Sonar user-base. Take this spiritual awakening to your colleagues. Go tell it on the Cakewalk mountain so that everyone gets with the program. The moral universe is watching.
post edited by Corling - 2011/03/17 22:32:19
Sonar X1c / Intel i7-980x / Windows 7 64-bit / 16GB RAM / Intel SSDs For OS and Project Drives / RME Fireface 800 Interface
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...wicked
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/17 22:58:40
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I agree in theory, but I wouldn't expect a programmer to take the time out and read this 8-pg thread.
And while I do appreciate people who care about their work, the...uh...spiritual requirements you lay out are pretty intense.
Great ideas implemented greatly is what I expect. Trying to get an open conduit for feedback and refinements is the bonus we're all struggling for on here I think.
=========== The Fog People =========== Intel i7-4790 16GB RAM ASUS Z97 Roland OctaCapture Win10/64 SONAR Platinum 64-bit billions VSTs, some of which work
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/17 23:26:06
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Corling
Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
PedalPoint
Bub
Anyone else think it's funny that there's 8 pages of text discussing two mouse clicks?
Holy crap are we nerdy
LOL!
It's really not a laughing matter Brandon.
It would be great to know that every Cakewalk employee shares the investment, reverence, intensity, passion, sacrifice and resolve to make Sonar as responsive as my diaphragm, my feet, my spine, my voice and my sweet errant thoughts are to the task of making important, world-changing, life-changing music.
This calling should be your obsession, your religion, and your sole will and testemant--because it is for the Sonar user-base. Take this spiritual awakening to your colleagues. Go tell it on the Cakewalk mountain so that everyone gets with the program. The moral universe is watching.
Spiritual awakening? 
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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