OK RTL Latency is the TOPIC!

Is it still the PCIe[not PCI.....Sandy Bridge...oh sure I got 2 PCI slots,but THE BRIDGE!-even if it worked,No better than Firewire,they tell me] yes I said PCIe,is it still the quickest trip?
Then besides EMU who makes PCIe for at least 1/2 of what RME cost's[here-$1000,just for the card,no pre's,no Multiface]???

Also EMU's 1212,1616m come with Sonar 6!!!.......too old,.PCIe for Sandy B is lookin grim.

ESI make something but,I know 0 about it.

Should I stop typing right now,and just get a Babyface? You use one of those Mr. Roseberry,don't you?

> metadebates over metapoints in metadiscussions...or summat.

It's interesting, though, isn't it? After the preceding 20 pages, in which "I can hear it" arguments were shown conclusively to be useless arguments, just shift the topic slightly, and everyone falls back on "I can hear it" immediately.

To be fair, I would expect the tolerable threshold to be a bit lower for lots of highly percussive sounds.

Jim Roseberry

Lots of people will swear they can hear the difference between 5ms and 15 ms of latency, but they totally can't.

 
FWIW, If you have absolutely any sense of solid/tight musical time (especially those with a drumming background), you can most definitely hear/feel the difference between playing thru 5ms and 15ms total round-trip latency.  Don't think so???  Setup your favorite virtual piano and play it with 5-6ms of latency.  Now add a 100% wet delay plugin (as an insert)... and set it to add 10ms of delay.
Play the virtual piano both with and without the delay.  Which one feels tighter and more responsive?
It's easy to hear the difference (unless you're playing super slow attack sounds). 

Hi Jim, unfortunately I'm in this same camp with you brother. Something in the "feel" changes for me. I don't really hear a latency, but I definitely feel it with my V Drums as well as my keyboard. For example, at 256 buffers (5.3 ms for me) I seriously tell a major difference and can't play there correctly.
 
At 128 buffers (2.7 ms for me) I can play perfectly and do not notice an actual timing thing...but the feel gets funny. I can't even describe it other than I can have someone set this up without me seeing it and I can tell them what buffers they used.
 
At 64 buffers (1.3 ms for me) that feel thing (or lack there of) at 128 buffers is no longer there. I notice all this stuff moreso on my drum kit though than the piano. But I can't do 256 (5.3 ms) at all. I can't believe there was a time when I DID use that setting and just got used to it. It could be because maybe the new stuff of today is a bit more demanding, I was using WDM drivers and never had a pc like the one you built me. I know all that stuff really comes into play performance wise...especially having a pc with the right horse power and good asio drivers. But honest when I tell you man, I can pick these buffer sizes and latency out without even seeing them.
 
As a matter of fact, I just did this about 4 months ago. I have a new studio and when we put the new V Drums kit in and were testing everthing out, I yelled in to my engineer that was at the console "dude, take it off 128 and set it to 64 buffers" and he says "you gotta be kidding me...how did you know that's where it was set?!" Honest, that's a true story. It may have something to do with me originally being a drummer or the fact that I have pretty decent timing...but you're not alone in this. :)
 
-Danny

John T


Aaaaaaannnnndd.... 20 pages.

 
Aaaaaaannnnndd.... 97 times you've posted in those 20 pages.
 
 
That's 16% of all the posts on this massive thread.
 
 
Or just shy of 3⅓ pages all to yourself.
 
 
Somebody sure likes the sound of their own voice.
 
 
Unless of course you meant "Aaaaaaannnnndd.... 20 pages" was a good thing.
 
 

John T


I do think it's a good thing, yeah. As you've noticed, it's a conversation I'm actively participating in. If you're not into it, you can always **** off.

 
Ahh thanks Johnty baby, I love it when you talk dirty.

SteveStrummerUK

John T


I do think it's a good thing, yeah. As you've noticed, it's a conversation I'm actively participating in. If you're not into it, you can always **** off.

 
Ahh thanks Johnty baby, I love it when you talk dirty.

Can I talk dirty to ya too Strummy, I'm not very good at it and I need the praccy !


You fop, you .. you... bounder you....




There, I said it..

The Kiosk Project

SteveStrummerUK

John T


I do think it's a good thing, yeah. As you've noticed, it's a conversation I'm actively participating in. If you're not into it, you can always **** off.

Ahh thanks Johnty baby, I love it when you talk dirty.

Can I talk dirty to ya too Strummy, I'm not very good at it and I need the praccy !


You fop, you .. you... bounder you....




There, I said it..

 
Sorry Garry, I can't be having with any of that mate.
 
 
In point of fact, I'm sulking at the moment after such a crushing put-down from me ol' bezzie mate John T....
 
 
I'm only just managing to hold back the tears.
 
 
I think I'll just skulk off with my metaphorical tail between my non-metaphorical legs and self-harm for a couple of days in a darkened room.
 
 
 

Man a 48 buffer?! LOL!! What's the ms on that, like 0.8 ms? Funny story...when I first got the machine you built for me, it actually worked at 32 buffers one time. It never worked again without a drop-out...as a matter of fact, I couldn't even get the audio engine to start up. But one time, it actually worked and was a pretty cool experience! But I'm totally fine with 64 for the stuff I do. :)

Hey, just to let you know...my buddy Matt is stoked with his pc. He called me one day and was like "yeah, I'm going to Best Buy to get a computer for my studio" and I'm like..."no you don't, you call this guy and let him build it for you...it's non-negotiable". Hahaha! I was at his place a few weeks back. The system is smokin' and he's really blown away with it. He said "wow, everything works and it's fast, I'm so not used to this". LOL! :)

-Danny

Maybe we should hurry this along to the glue factory?

I'm willing to believe that people have different tolerances for latency, but I'm *really* skeptical about the sampling rate thing. The uncontroversial fact of the matter is the *nobody* can hear at higher frequencies than 22khz, so 44.1 recording (according to the Nyquist theorem) covers the entire audible range for everybody.

So, by necessity, we are claiming that there is some kind of ultrasonic interaction that affects clarity in the audible range. I know this claim has been made, but as far as I am aware, not convincingly, and not backed up by testing.

Interestingly, higher sampling rates do seem to affect distortion in the audible range, but the kicker is, they make it worse, not better.

Oh goody...let's talk about aliasing now...

The Kiosk Project

As someone who spends a fair bit of time on stage performing with wireless systems (wandering into the audience), you get more than about 20' off the stage... and the latency starts to get pretty uncomfortable.

Jim Roseberry

Thats a very interesting fact Jim. I am currently putting together a new band as lead guitarist and have been looking at some wireless rigs for my guitars. I had never considered this. Are you saying that the latency is less if you stay stagebound? (I am talking small club / bar stages here) Is that to do with the processing of any interference in the weakened single as I cant see that the distances involved could possibly be effected by the speed of transmission...


I know this should be for the equipment or coffee house but I couldn't help but respond to the comment...


Garry

Hi Gary,
 
I just wanted to share this with you as I'm a total stickler for wireless units. I've tried every single one I could get my hands on. The best is the Sony which is of course about 5k non-negotiable. But to be honest, I didn't want to be wireless THAT bad. LOL!
 
I've tried Beyerdynamic, Nady, Samson, AKG, Shure, Sennheiser, and all the new/old models of the aforementioned companies. None of them were to my liking...so I've stuck with a chord all these years. Until now. I happened to read some really good reviews about the Line 6 Relay G90. Well, I decided to order one to try it. I have an arrangement with the company I buy from that I can just send something back if it's not for me no matter what it is. They usually let me use it for a month or so and then I either return it or send them the cash.
 
But anyway, I get this thing...set it up for the most part (you'll understand what I mean by "for the most part" in a second lol) and start walking around my house. Up stair, around corners, half way up my attic steps, out side in my front yard, out side in my back yard...this thing just wouldn't quit or drop out. I come to find out, I didn't even have the antenna's hooked up and it still kicked my butt!!!!!!!!!
 
Some of the cool features about it:
 
I cannot tell a difference between it and my cable. I recorded with both...0 difference. They have a cable selector/simulator that works fantastic built into this thing.
 
Rechargeable batteries work like a charm. You literally get 7 hours out of them to the numbers using Eveready's. The battery meter on both the transmitter and receiver are spot on and at a glance, you know how much juice you got.
 
You can change the color of the LED readout to various cool colors to match your other readout lights.
 
You can put the antenna's on the front or the back. This way (in the back) you never have to take them off like you would in the front as most rack lids in the front won't let you keep your antenna's on. It works just as great on the back as it does the front.
 
I've gotten 0 drop-outs and no interference at all.
 
No loss of gain, no compressed tone, nothing synthetic.
 
Durable belt pack made of metal...detachable cable.
 
Custom channel saving with name label ability. I have a few transmitters...each one with the name of the guitar on the transmitter.
 
Way more channels than you'll ever need.
 
Drawbacks:
 
Only two. The first is, with the rechargeable batteries, (though they work and perform flalessly) there's a bit of an error with the battery timer when you first fire the unit up with a battery that's been used a bit. This is one of the drawbacks of using rechargeables.....the meter needs a few minutes to read the battery correctly. For example, if you put a fully charged one in, it will read the right amount of time. If you use it all night at a gig and then fire it up the next night or whatever, it will read a number that may be a half hour to an hour off at first. After 3-5 minutes of being on, the correct battery life will show. If you do this with a REAL battery, it will give you the proper time without the 3-5 minute thing. They mention this flaw in the manual...so I knew about it. It's not messed me up or anything.
 
The next is, I got a little hum out of it that I could not get out no matter what I tried. Even with the unit powered off it had this little tiny 60 cycle hum in it. I know this was not my rack or anything in my rack. I took it out of the rack and set it up the same way...it just wasn't "Racked in". It still gave me this little hum. I use all new cables and stuff, so I figured it may be the unit. I grabbed one of those 3 prong to 2 prong adaptors and dropped the ground on it and it was completely gone. I don't like to use those things, but it solved the problem and I have a totally clean sound with 0 noise, hiss, it's perfect. I don't know if maybe the hum is a flaw with my unit or this is something they all have, but the little ground lift worked...so I never looked into it any further.
 
That's the only issues I had though. It's definitely the best wireless I've ever used for guitar. I play some pretty nice size rooms and outdoor gigs...it's been flawless for every one. Definitely check one of these out when you get a chance. I promise you won't be sorry. Hope this helps.
 
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/RelayG90/ If you scroll through the reviews, I put one up there because I was so blown away by this. It's pretty much along the lines of what you've read here though. :)
 
Sheesh...I'm way off topic...sorry about that guys...just trying to help a few brothers out. :)
 
-Danny

Or just some speed? :)

Danny once described War & Peace as an interesting paragraph.