Sound Quality of Sonar X1

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strikinglyhandsome1
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 11:23:05 (permalink)
He types in the Diatonic scale.
Garry Stubbs
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 11:25:13 (permalink)
Danny Danzi


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As someone who spends a fair bit of time on stage performing with wireless systems (wandering into the audience), you get more than about 20' off the stage... and the latency starts to get pretty uncomfortable.
Jim Roseberry



Thats a very interesting fact Jim. I am currently putting together a new band as lead guitarist and have been looking at some wireless rigs for my guitars. I had never considered this. Are you saying that the latency is less if you stay stagebound? (I am talking small club / bar stages here) Is that to do with the processing of any interference in the weakened single as I cant see that the distances involved could possibly be effected by the speed of transmission...


I know this should be for the equipment or coffee house but I couldn't help but respond to the comment...


Garry

Hi Gary,
 
I just wanted to share this with you as I'm a total stickler for wireless units. I've tried every single one I could get my hands on. The best is the Sony which is of course about 5k non-negotiable. But to be honest, I didn't want to be wireless THAT bad. LOL!
 
I've tried Beyerdynamic, Nady, Samson, AKG, Shure, Sennheiser, and all the new/old models of the aforementioned companies. None of them were to my liking...so I've stuck with a chord all these years. Until now. I happened to read some really good reviews about the Line 6 Relay G90. Well, I decided to order one to try it. I have an arrangement with the company I buy from that I can just send something back if it's not for me no matter what it is. They usually let me use it for a month or so and then I either return it or send them the cash.
 
But anyway, I get this thing...set it up for the most part (you'll understand what I mean by "for the most part" in a second lol) and start walking around my house. Up stair, around corners, half way up my attic steps, out side in my front yard, out side in my back yard...this thing just wouldn't quit or drop out. I come to find out, I didn't even have the antenna's hooked up and it still kicked my butt!!!!!!!!!
 
Some of the cool features about it:
 
I cannot tell a difference between it and my cable. I recorded with both...0 difference. They have a cable selector/simulator that works fantastic built into this thing.
 
Rechargeable batteries work like a charm. You literally get 7 hours out of them to the numbers using Eveready's. The battery meter on both the transmitter and receiver are spot on and at a glance, you know how much juice you got.
 
You can change the color of the LED readout to various cool colors to match your other readout lights.
 
You can put the antenna's on the front or the back. This way (in the back) you never have to take them off like you would in the front as most rack lids in the front won't let you keep your antenna's on. It works just as great on the back as it does the front.
 
I've gotten 0 drop-outs and no interference at all.
 
No loss of gain, no compressed tone, nothing synthetic.
 
Durable belt pack made of metal...detachable cable.
 
Custom channel saving with name label ability. I have a few transmitters...each one with the name of the guitar on the transmitter.
 
Way more channels than you'll ever need.
 
Drawbacks:
 
Only two. The first is, with the rechargeable batteries, (though they work and perform flalessly) there's a bit of an error with the battery timer when you first fire the unit up with a battery that's been used a bit. This is one of the drawbacks of using rechargeables.....the meter needs a few minutes to read the battery correctly. For example, if you put a fully charged one in, it will read the right amount of time. If you use it all night at a gig and then fire it up the next night or whatever, it will read a number that may be a half hour to an hour off at first. After 3-5 minutes of being on, the correct battery life will show. If you do this with a REAL battery, it will give you the proper time without the 3-5 minute thing. They mention this flaw in the manual...so I knew about it. It's not messed me up or anything.
 
The next is, I got a little hum out of it that I could not get out no matter what I tried. Even with the unit powered off it had this little tiny 60 cycle hum in it. I know this was not my rack or anything in my rack. I took it out of the rack and set it up the same way...it just wasn't "Racked in". It still gave me this little hum. I use all new cables and stuff, so I figured it may be the unit. I grabbed one of those 3 prong to 2 prong adaptors and dropped the ground on it and it was completely gone. I don't like to use those things, but it solved the problem and I have a totally clean sound with 0 noise, hiss, it's perfect. I don't know if maybe the hum is a flaw with my unit or this is something they all have, but the little ground lift worked...so I never looked into it any further.
 
That's the only issues I had though. It's definitely the best wireless I've ever used for guitar. I play some pretty nice size rooms and outdoor gigs...it's been flawless for every one. Definitely check one of these out when you get a chance. I promise you won't be sorry. Hope this helps.
 
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/RelayG90/ If you scroll through the reviews, I put one up there because I was so blown away by this. It's pretty much along the lines of what you've read here though. :)
 
Sheesh...I'm way off topic...sorry about that guys...just trying to help a few brothers out. :)
 
-Danny

Danny, you are total value for money, I really appreciate this info. Also my sincere apologies to the OP, I will be happy to get the thread back on track after this.


Just took a look at a review and the UK pricing. It's a bit out my budget right now, as I have had to put together a new PA and lighting rig ready for my new band launch later this year. However I value your experience and opinion on these things so much, I think I am going to stick with my cable(s) and wait till I can justify one of these line six units before I try out and buy.


Thanks so much Danny, maybe if I could type as fast as you I could play as well as you too !!!


Garry Kiosk


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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 11:36:08 (permalink)
LOL you guys are too much! Hahahaha....I needed to show you just how fast I type with two fingers....I'm not too bad, but a little slow this morning...but, on a good day, I can kick some butt! :)

I did this for you guys...lol...I love this place! :) http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/DannyForumFun.wmv

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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 11:55:50 (permalink)
Danny Danzi


LOL you guys are too much! Hahahaha....I needed to show you just how fast I type with two fingers....I'm not too bad, but a little slow this morning...but, on a good day, I can kick some butt! :)

I did this for you guys...lol...I love this place! :) http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/DannyForumFun.wmv

-Danny

Haha thats funny Danny, your fingers sound like tap dancing flea's on speed !


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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 11:56:59 (permalink)
Karl: hahaha....probably not...but I tried to keep it on topic for as long as I could. LOL! I almost posted a new group of samples to try and prove something else I've been working on. Then it hit me...is it worth it? I don't want John T beating up on me. LMAO!

John: I do agree on the sample thing....I think most of it is in my head...but darn if I don't get lucky and pick the 44.1 file all the time. I was talking to a really good engineer friend of mine last night on the phone. We were talking about high end gear vs. the lower end stuff, converters, Apogee...the whole nine yards. So I email him this little song I did on my little net box using the Realtek. I usually log ideas on it. But this one...for some reason really sounded good. I send it to him, he says he loves it and is complimenting me on the instruments etc and I say "what would you say if I told you that was all a Realtek and stock Sonar plugs?" He just about died laughing on the phone.

But during the course of our conversation, I asked him: "do you ever feel you sort of force yourself to think something sounds better than it really is because you spent big bucks for it? Like, you know...when you do a test and then compare and are almost so depressed that the good thing didn't make a difference at all or so small of a difference it wasn't worth it?"

He starts laughing hysterically, proceeds to tell me to go eff myself because he's been in that position many times...and we both chalk it up as "ok, we bought into the hype...ok, we tried to make ourselves believe something was better than it really was, and ok, though all this is true and there may be a 3-5% difference in some of this stuff, the more good gear/front end and everything that goes with it that you get, the more the whole big picture of the summed percentage climbs." So that sort of made us feel a little better. LOL! :)

strikingly: that's one I never went near. Something about War & Peace just makes me uncomfrotable. Probably because the creator typed more in that than all my posts on every forum combined! No wait...I'd be willing to bet I gave him a good run for the money there. ;)

SEV: you're too kind. :) Actually, the axe stuff. I didn't get into computers until the early 90's. Yet, I had a Franklin Ace with the big floppy drive that I used to play games on. But my first real pc was a Packard Bell with 8 mb RAM, a 75 mhz processor. I remember walking around thinking it was the best thing since sliced bread. I actuallt ran Cakewalk 3 on that system if I remember correctly.

Gary: No problem, just figured I'd try to help you out having struggled with that wireless thing myself for so long. I actually have a video of this somewhere...but one time, I tripped over my chord, got it wrapped around something, and my entire rack fell off the stage and onto the floor. All the years I've been playing, that has never happened. I made sure it wasn't going to happen again. LOL! Yeah, it's a little pricey for a wireless....their G30 may be cool also. I'm sure they used the same technology in these things. The differences are you get a few more bells and whistles with the G 90 and more distance you can go. A bud of mine has the G 30 and loves it...but his tastes and mine sirt of differ at times, so I don't know how good that one would be. Yeah, when in doubt, stick to the cable. :)

Panu: we always share the same or similar opinion. I always said you were my brutha from anutha mutha. :-Þ

-Danny

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Danny Danzi
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 12:02:41 (permalink)
lol @ tapping flea's on speed! I figured you might get a kick out of that. :) You know I'm getting goofy when I start posting vids of my typing...sheesh it's been a long night into the day. I need to go home and get some sleep. LOL! Talk to you guys later...this thread has been awesome. :)

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John T
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 12:03:04 (permalink)
I think there is a thing where over-speccing can often go hand in hand with quality. As in, the 96k interface might not need to be 96k, but it's probably pretty well specced everywhere. So it's probably just "good" in all the ways that matter.

I think this about computers a bit, as it happens. Hardly anyone needs 12 cores or whatever, but a high end 12 core system at this point in time is probably well put together out of great components.

My point being: all things being equal, just vaguely aiming at the top of the range in your purchases will inevitably yeild more good results than bad. I think that's fine, and there's only so much painstainkingly reading spec sheets a sane person can take. I think where we make errors is in where we ascribe causes. Does this interface sound better because it's 96k? Or does it sound better because it's just all-round better? Given the number of variables, I'd bet on the latter.

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John T
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 12:03:56 (permalink)
Or more simply - quality of converters and pre-amps are so muvch more important than high sample rate, it's almost not worth thinking about the latter (IMO).

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Jim Roseberry
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 13:14:18 (permalink)
Man a 48 buffer?! LOL!! What's the ms on that, like 0.8 ms? Funny story...when I first got the machine you built for me, it actually worked at 32 buffers one time. It never worked again without a drop-out...as a matter of fact, I couldn't even get the audio engine to start up. But one time, it actually worked and was a pretty cool experience! But I'm totally fine with 64 for the stuff I do. :) Hey, just to let you know...my buddy Matt is stoked with his pc. He called me one day and was like "yeah, I'm going to Best Buy to get a computer for my studio" and I'm like..."no you don't, you call this guy and let him build it for you...it's non-negotiable". Hahaha! I was at his place a few weeks back. The system is smokin' and he's really blown away with it. He said "wow, everything works and it's fast, I'm so not used to this". LOL! :)

 
Glad the machines are working well for you and Matt!
 
Yeah, at the 48-sample ASIO buffer size (RME Babyface for portability), the one-way playback latency of soft-synths (including the D/A) is somewhere around 2.4 to 2.5ms.
 
Something else that's not been discussed is that some softsynths add additional latency.
ie:  Kontakt libraries (with certain scripts) add additional ms of latency.  True Pianos sure feels to me like it adds a small amount of latency.  At the smallest ASIO buffer sizes, this additional latency is mitigated.
At a 256-sample ASIO buffer size, the total latency is just too sluggish (at least for me).

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 13:29:42 (permalink)
I'm changing my name,that avatar ain't anybody I know,I never said anything. 

Back to GS it is I guess,sob.

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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 13:33:37 (permalink)
Hmmmmm.... isn't the relationship between buffer size and actual latency variable depending on other factors of the system? Which would mean it wouldn't make sense to talk about recognising given buffer sizes? Or have I got this wrong?

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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 13:54:04 (permalink)
Ok...ok... and not because this is happening but only because I said I would SIX pages ago, when I never thought we'd get to page 22.....




John T
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 13:59:24 (permalink)
I wouldn't mess with ZOMBIE HORSE if I were you.

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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 14:03:49 (permalink)
ZOMBIES!!!

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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 14:04:30 (permalink)
Jim Roseberry



Lots of people will swear they can hear the difference between 5ms and 15 ms of latency, but they totally can't.

 
FWIW, If you have absolutely any sense of solid/tight musical time (especially those with a drumming background), you can most definitely hear/feel the difference between playing thru 5ms and 15ms total round-trip latency.  Don't think so???  Setup your favorite virtual piano and play it with 5-6ms of latency.  Now add a 100% wet delay plugin (as an insert)... and set it to add 10ms of delay.
Play the virtual piano both with and without the delay.  Which one feels tighter and more responsive?
It's easy to hear the difference (unless you're playing super slow attack sounds). 

10ms is my absolute maximum for latency. You lose the "Sweet spot" of playback that you'd expect from hardware. My normal buffering will keep my latency around 2ms. 


Timing again is genre dependent. Trance or house music for example will have a far greater need for tight arpeggios and leads versa lets say an solo acoustic guitar. Unless you plan on using a step sequencer, it can get a lot more difficult to produce with a greater buffer size.


Trance music for example runs are 138-140 BPM with a 4x4 kick drum. Composing complex arps or lead progressions are very timing sensitive at that tempo. Having a larger buffer size can throw off what you perceive to be an accurate line. Once quantized you'll notice incorrect note placement. Dropping your buffer down within the 5-7 ms range will allow an more accurate experience.  

Best,


post edited by Scott Lee - 2012/03/13 14:56:43

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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 14:06:27 (permalink)
I think it needs something a little stronger...

A scene from ...Dr Strangelove.....



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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 14:07:25 (permalink)
John T


Hmmmmm.... isn't the relationship between buffer size and actual latency variable depending on other factors of the system? Which would mean it wouldn't make sense to talk about recognising given buffer sizes? Or have I got this wrong?


It is and Jim knows that too, I'm sure when he's talking about 256 buffers being too slow there he's using his system as a reference.

That's how I took it anyway.

I'm liking the idea that with my Quad the figures are not that far behind the Babyface.  And whilst I can certainly match the 48 samples buffer size as being usable the one way latency quoted there is nearer 3 ms because of those very differences.

I usually work at 64 samples on my rig and anything over 128 for my particular setup and I start stuttering when tracking.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/03/13 14:17:59

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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 14:24:19 (permalink)
Hi Scott Lee (ASCAP). Do you find that over 10ms latency, the 70-200hz muddiness stands out more?

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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 14:29:14 (permalink)
My latency takes the scenic route on its round trip and even stops for a bit of sightseeing. Mine's quite high. Some of us just have to learn to live with it.
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 14:30:29 (permalink)
Blow me down with a feather. You say this stuff is more important in your chosen genre, but everyone else can probably deal with the crappy slackness? Wasn't expecting you to say that. In no way did I see that coming from a mile away.

John T (CLAPTRAP)

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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 14:32:46 (permalink)
So, thus far, the claim, unless I've missed something is "I can hear it". The supporting evidence for the claim is "Because I can drum / make techno / am special god damn it".

Now, I'm not saying for sure that people definitely can't percieve fine latency differences. But these arguments aren't good ones, are they?

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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 14:35:27 (permalink)
More relevantly, they're exactly the same kind of arguments as the rest of this thread has comprehensively debunked. Has nobody else noticed this?

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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 14:45:22 (permalink)
Do whales get a percentage cut of their singing on relaxation tapes?
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 14:56:15 (permalink)
Trimph1,
LOL.  Do you have anything stronger?  This thread needs to be beamed to Uranus.

Rimshot
post edited by Rimshot - 2012/03/13 15:19:19

Rimshot 

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John T
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 14:58:56 (permalink)
Rimshot


Trimph1,
LOL.  Do you have anything stronger?  This thread needs to beamed to Uranus.

Rimshot


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCbfMkh940Q

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strikinglyhandsome1
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 15:03:25 (permalink)
Which DAW would survive a nuclear attack? I think Sonar X1e will have that capability added to it. It may be confirmed in the next webinar.
Rimshot
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 15:22:26 (permalink)
Do you think the vocal was recorded in 8, 16, or 24 bit to give the effect it did?  Just wonderin'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSbigjiKLoU&feature=related

Rimshot

Rimshot 

Sonar Platinum 64 (Lifer), Studio One V3.5, Notion 6, Steinberg UR44, Zoom R24, Purrrfect Audio Pro Studio DAW (Case: Silent Mid Tower, Power Supply: 600w quiet, Haswell CPU: i7 4790k @ 4.4GHz (8 threads), RAM: 16GB DDR3/1600 
, OS drive: 1TB HD, Audio drive: 1TB HD), Windows 10 x64 Anniversary, Equator D5 monitors, Faderport, FP8, Akai MPK261
John T
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 15:24:06 (permalink)
Most DAWs can withstand the initial blast. But realistically, if you're going to survive the collapse into barbarism that follows, it's got to be ProTools on a MacBook Air. It's the only known combination for fending off a ravenous cannibal and making sweet beats at the same time.

http://johntatlockaudio.com/
Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
bapu
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 15:36:06 (permalink)
Danny Danzi


LOL you guys are too much! Hahahaha....I needed to show you just how fast I type with two fingers....I'm not too bad, but a little slow this morning...but, on a good day, I can kick some butt! :)

I did this for you guys...lol...I love this place! :) http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/DannyForumFun.wmv

-Danny

I'n tht fst 2. Bt I mk mistasks,
Jeff Evans
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/13 16:35:02 (permalink)
I have read a few interesting articles about sample rates and one thing that might explain what you heard is that some A to D and D to A converters have a slightly better sound at a certain sampling rate.

Brand A might sound a little better at 96 KHz that it does at 44KHz. Brand B might sound better at 48 Khz. It was concluded that you cannot get great or a perfect sound at all the sampling rates of the same A to D. I find that a bit interesting. 

Yours might be a good 48 K sound compared to your 44 sound and your 96 K sound might be also very nice. I will try and track it down, they were all very reputable people discussing the subject. Blind fold tests were done and the were high percentages of people picking the better sounding music at a given sample rate. Some converters can sound good at 44 and 48 but a little different or worse at 96K. A lot has to do with optimisation of the components involved with the A to D process and the sampling rates used. Danny I use a Yamaha digital mixer with only 44.1K and 48K sample rate options. I have tested it many times in depth and I cannot hear a sqaut of difference between these two sampling rates unlike your case for example. It just sounds great at both settings. The later model has 96K. I would not mind comparing that to its lower rate and see how it sounds.

With latency very small amounts of change can be detected or felt. I agree with Scott in that if you are working with very quantised music and you have a good sense of time as well, you can hear very small shifts in track timings (advance and delay). The music does not even have to be quantised. Very live grooves without any click track can also be felt to change if you start advancing and delaying tracks even by a ms or so.

If you were nulling two waves and you moved one by 1ms you would hear a big difference! If you were watching a movie and you shifted all the foley effects by a ms or two it may not look right either.

External midi instruments especially on their own midi ports can have very low levels of latency and they can definitely feel different as a result. I also feel that with computers being fast now that the virtual instruments can feel great and very responsive too. On a less powerful machine you can always put your buffers way down when you need to for the best feel during tracking and freeze the tracks and put the buffers way up when you are mixing.


post edited by Jeff Evans - 2012/03/13 17:57:42

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