wizard71
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 06:52:27
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John T
Anyway: recording bit depth 24: worth it. Any higher: not worth it. Sampling rate higher than 44.1: not worth it. Come on, surely I can get an argument out of that (it's actually what I think, so I'm not *just* trolling).
umm....err ive heard sampling rate 96 worth it for lower latency? Discuss :-)
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John T
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 07:15:37
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Aaaaaaannnnndd.... 20 pages.
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John T
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 07:17:45
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Ah, now we're onto something. Low latency: not that important. Also, threshold of human latency perception: loads higher than everyone thinks. This is a bit like the argument in the earlier part of the thread actually. Lots of people will swear they can hear the difference between 5ms and 15 ms of latency, but they totally can't.
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trimph1
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 07:22:56
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I can too hear the difference between 5ms and 10ms!!!  There is extra sparkle and lustre in it!
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Jonbouy
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 07:36:34
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John T
Ah, now we're onto something. Low latency: not that important. Also, threshold of human latency perception: loads higher than everyone thinks. This is a bit like the argument in the earlier part of the thread actually. Lots of people will swear they can hear the difference between 5ms and 15 ms of latency, but they totally can't.
I can. Seriously. Anything under 9 ms (measured RTL) and I'm fine above that and I start getting thrown by the delay. Page 21 is on it's way.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 07:38:05
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Lots of people will swear they can hear the difference between 5ms and 15 ms of latency, but they totally can't. FWIW, If you have absolutely any sense of solid/tight musical time (especially those with a drumming background), you can most definitely hear/feel the difference between playing thru 5ms and 15ms total round-trip latency. Don't think so??? Setup your favorite virtual piano and play it with 5-6ms of latency. Now add a 100% wet delay plugin (as an insert)... and set it to add 10ms of delay. Play the virtual piano both with and without the delay. Which one feels tighter and more responsive? It's easy to hear the difference (unless you're playing super slow attack sounds). 
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Jonbouy
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 07:38:50
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wizard71
John T
Anyway: recording bit depth 24: worth it. Any higher: not worth it. Sampling rate higher than 44.1: not worth it. Come on, surely I can get an argument out of that (it's actually what I think, so I'm not *just* trolling).
umm....err ive heard sampling rate 96 worth it for lower latency?
Discuss :-)
Ah, but system load increases...additional disk space required....blah, blah.... 
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John T
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 07:40:05
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Ha, excellent, I knew that would get someone to respond. Putting aside whether you are right or not, come on, that's a terribly designed test. It pretty much guarantees confirmation bias.
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John T
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 07:40:55
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Straight in with the "proper musicians can hear it" appeal to authority too. It's funny really; 20 pages and not actually any further forward on these fundamental points.
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Jonbouy
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 07:41:38
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John T
Ha, excellent, I knew that would get someone to respond. Putting aside whether you are right or not, come on, that's a terribly designed test. It pretty much guarantees confirmation bias.
I already knew you were going to mention confirmation bias in advance...
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John T
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 07:43:25
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Good! This stuff *should* be obvious, especially after the preceding discussion.
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strikinglyhandsome1
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 07:44:13
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Ooh, I bet you're wondering how I knew, about your plans to record another tune. With some other software you've never used before. Between the two of us you know there really is only one DAW. It took me by surprise I must say when, when I found out yesterday. Don't you know that...
I heard it through the grapevine. No other DAW will do it quite as fine. Oh I heard it through the grapevine, Oh and I'm thinking you're about to lose your mind. Sonar, Sonar yeah.
Now I know you like using Pro Tools 9, but it's more than just the plugs inside. Using Sonar won't end your life you see, 64Bit and it's already Motown optimised. You should have a word with yourself. And leave Pro recordings to someone else. Instead...
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Jonbouy
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 07:54:34
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John T
Straight in with the "proper musicians can hear it" appeal to authority too. It's funny really; 20 pages and not actually any further forward on these fundamental points.
If you are a real musician you know that settling into your groove takes a little bit of getting used to depending on the size of the venue. I always get more fatigued playing in a bigger venue by trying to compensate for the late reflections (compounded with the effect of feeling a need to project into a larger space I'm sure), whereas in a small club you feel a more direct connection with what you are playing and what you are hearing. Some venues you want to play in again and again just because the feedback they provide suits the way you play. Likewise I've found a sweet spot in my audio latency settings that I feel comfortable with, I don't do the science on that one I just set it and forget it. How am I doing?
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 07:58:56
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Ha, excellent, I knew that would get someone to respond. Putting aside whether you are right or not, come on, that's a terribly designed test. It pretty much guarantees confirmation bias. In all seriousness, it's quite easy to feel the difference between playing a piano at 5ms total round-trip latency and 15ms total round-trip latency. Have a friend setup the test double blind... and just let you play the piano. There's no doubt in my mind which you'd prefer. Even better example, have a seasoned drummer trigger a drum sample library (using pads - double blind setup/controlled by you) and ask which he/she prefers. Again, it's not hard to tell the difference. I don't even see this as debatable... Now... Can you feel the difference of 1ms latency increments??? That would be much more difficult. Another example: Play a DI electric bass thru Ampeg SVX (or your favorite amp-sim plugin) at both 5ms and 15ms round-trip latency. There's no comparison as to which feels more comfortable. No need to take my word for it... it's easy to make the comparison.
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John T
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 08:01:03
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Size of venue is relevant, yeah. Though the key thing is how far away you are from where the sound issuing from. You add roughly 1ms of latency for every foot away you are from the sound source. So playing guitar with your amp about 15 feet away is about 15ms latency. I was recently reading about some listening tests, and it seems that there's an important psycho-acoustic aspect to this, too. Latency seems to be a lot less tolerable through headphones, for example. So to some extent, it seems our brains do some basic compensation for latency based on the perceived origin point of the sound.
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John T
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 08:02:42
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With respect, I think throughout this thread we've shown how useless "there is no doubt in my mind" and "I can hear it" arguments are. They don't confirm anything. I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, I'm just saying those arguments don't really get us anywhere.
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John T
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 08:03:30
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What I will say is I can't tell the difference between playing guitar right next to the amp and playing from the other side of the room (in my case about 20 feet away).
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John T
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 08:07:36
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I wish I could remember where I was reading about these tests. It was just last week. I'll try to dig it up, it's very interesting. Broadly, the conclusion was that the threshold of perception through the air was something around 30ms, but it was much, much lower on headphones. It also varied a bit according to the type of sound, interestingly enough, though not by a huge amount.
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trimph1
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 08:07:53
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OK....now....here is a funny one. Technics turntable>monoblock amps>EPI Monitor100's....there is a defo delay between turning the turntable on and getting the speakers going....  ...oh...btw...speakers located about 14 feet from each other and monoblocks parked right behind them...
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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Jonbouy
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 08:08:16
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and it seems that there's an important psycho-acoustic aspect to this, too
Very much so I would venture. I wouldn't be surprised if it is all tied in to a survival instinct based on 'spatial precognition' in other words being attuned to the space you are entering into by learned visual cues and aural sensations layered in our DNA which would vary from individual to individual. Hopefully I've introduced a few concepts there that inspire some fresh and florid articulations that could take us to page 25.
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John T
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 08:09:16
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I think your cables must be sticky, and the electricity can't get through quickly enough. Soak them in water and then try again.
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trimph1
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 08:10:24
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I thought it had to do with the fish caps in the monoblocks....
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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Jonbouy
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 08:12:40
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John T
I think your cables must be sticky, and the electricity can't get through quickly enough. Soak them in water and then try again.
I tend to flush them with sine waves after each project and burnish the connectors with brasso too. I'd doubt if that's a problem, my cables are among the fastest in the south east.
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strikinglyhandsome1
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 08:20:16
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Anyone find just saying the names of DAWs out loud that you can hear a difference? Say 'Sonar' then 'Pro Tools' and 'Reaper'. Did you hear it? Two of them sound a little muddy to me. Not quite as crisp. 'So, Nar, Re, Mi, Fa, So, Nar, Ti, Do' - crystal clear.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 08:39:03
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With respect, I think throughout this thread we've shown how useless "there is no doubt in my mind" and "I can hear it" arguments are. They don't confirm anything. I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, I'm just saying those arguments don't really get us anywhere. Hi John, With respect to you, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind whether I prefer to play at a round-trip latency of 5ms vs. 15ms. I can absolutely feel the difference. You're certainly welcome to doubt that... but it doesn't change my perception/reality. This is a very easy scenario for anyone to test. Test and make up your own mind. As someone who spends a fair bit of time on stage performing with wireless systems (wandering into the audience), you get more than about 20' off the stage... and the latency starts to get pretty uncomfortable. Yes, I can compensate (especially vocals since they're not high-transient), but I don't like it.
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John T
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 09:00:42
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Well, perception and reality aren't the same thing.
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John T
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 09:01:40
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About 20 feet from the stage over wireless sounds about right for getting uncomfortable to me. You'll have you 20-25ms from the distance, plus your wireless latency. It would be well over the threshold of perception by then.
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John T
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 09:03:31
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Also, to return to the more meta point, again, your argument is entirely appeals to authority.
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Garry Stubbs
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 09:09:45
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Jonbouy
John T
Ah, now we're onto something. Low latency: not that important. Also, threshold of human latency perception: loads higher than everyone thinks. This is a bit like the argument in the earlier part of the thread actually. Lots of people will swear they can hear the difference between 5ms and 15 ms of latency, but they totally can't.
I can. Seriously.
Anything under 9 ms (measured RTL) and I'm fine above that and I start getting thrown by the delay.
Page 21 is on it's way.
This could be to do with the fact that you are a drummer Jonbouy, your synapses will be finely tuned over many years to the earliest transients of your own beats into the melodic instrumentation. I am a late life drummer (only learned at age 40) and I found I can live with 11ms but after that I cannot work with it. ie I really notice the latency effect at 12 ms. Garry Garry
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trimph1
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1
2012/03/13 09:11:52
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metadebates over metapoints in metadiscussions...or summat.
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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