Sound Quality of Sonar X1

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Seth Perlstein [Cakewalk]
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/07 21:25:32 (permalink)
backwoods


"So unless anyone making claims of sonic differences between DAWs has made all these things equal and then done a proper double-blind test and a phase-null test, then I'd be disinclined to trust their opinions! "


Exactly!!! 



Bingo.


SP


John T
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/07 21:28:17 (permalink)
It's notable, I think, that no DAW developers make such claims in their advertising. If there was anything to this, it would be an area that was fiercely competed over. 

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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/07 22:21:12 (permalink)
There is, in fact, one poster over at KvR who is collecting threads just like this one simply because there is so much "Schtuff"  that really is pure Equine Plumage...

The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate.

Bushpianos
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/07 22:22:52 (permalink)
The only real difference, and it is just difference, that exists is in workflow...and even then....

...and, to me, difference is just that...difference.

The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate.

Bushpianos
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/07 22:29:19 (permalink)
chuckebaby


this thread was interesting up untill about post 100..then it turned into the same people over and over trying to nail their point home..

Hey chuckebaby, sorry we can't be more entertaining. It's science versus opinion, darwin versus creationism, facts not required, please inquire within. Every action packed story has it's lull before the climax, stay tuned.
 
 

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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/07 22:56:54 (permalink)
John T


It's notable, I think, that no DAW developers make such claims in their advertising. If there was anything to this, it would be an area that was fiercely competed over. 


That's not entirely true. One of the DAWs claims to have the best sounding programs. In fact their current promo is "Sound Better Now".  They've even said that their product is "The Best Sounding DAW" out there. That's not a direct quote but pretty close. Industry standard and all.  I've been to a few of their presentations and this is indeed how they are promoting themselves.

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Jeff Evans
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/07 23:55:00 (permalink)
Update !

I have done some more testing. I have a Mac Laptop with ProTools 7.4 on it and Logic 8. I did the same mix in those and compared them to Studio One.

When I am null adjusting, I am moving timing of one of the waves very small amounts left and right and altering levels of one of them very fine amounts too until the lowest possible null output is obtained.

Interesting comparing Pro Tools with Studio One. What is left over is also very small amounts of null artifacts this time nothing below about 1 Khz and its mainly about mids and virtually no highs. Very low down in level too, more than 30 db down compared to the main signal. So maybe one could say that Pro Tools and Studio One agree in how the bass seems to be.

Logic and Studio One not quite so good. Some bass but more mids and highs in general, sounds like they don't agree so much. Pretty low down in level but more like 16 to 18 db down.

Pro Tools with Sonar left some more bottom end null artifacts behind while Sonar and Logic matched up very well for some reason. Nothing below 500 Hz in the artifacts and pretty quiet too. Highs cancelled out perfectly.

There are differences in how DAW's are summing this mix for example and you can hear it quite clearly in what is left over after the null. Whether it is enough to alter the final sound I am not sure. Because if you listen to any one of them at their full level on their own they all sound very very good. There are no standouts.

Interesting though that I did not get a perfect null with any combination. If you are just playing back a stereo file and passing it through to the output that may not be enough. I am summing 18 tracks and there are differences. The best null BTW was Pro Tools and Studio One. No bass or highs just a touch of mids and over 30 dB down in level. Worst null was Studio One and Logic. A lot of the spectrum got through and not as quiet.

I am confident the track levels are all set perfectly OK because in the best null case there is absolutely nothing in the low end or high end.

Although the nulls and their artifacts are quite clear and easy to hear I am not sure how I would go in a blind fold test though!

Freddie is a bit wrong too. In post #136 he makes out Sonar is a complete winner over the others mentioned but there is no complete winner. (with my test) Remember my test does not involve any plugins or instruments. The moment you start using those then any of those programs can sound good and they will start moving in their own direction more and that is what Freddie may be liking in terms of Sonar and that is perfectly fine.





post edited by Jeff Evans - 2012/03/08 01:24:15

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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/08 01:40:32 (permalink)
This is what Undertow said on gearslutz one week ago:

Why bother? The technically minded all know that all DAWs (that aren't broken) sound exactly the same. The people that truly believe that DAWs sound different are not technically minded and no amount of proof or arguments will ever convince them that what they believe they hear is an illusion. Here is the thing: It isn't about the arguments. It is all about ego and lack of technical understanding. If someone believes they heard a difference, their ego will not allow them to accept the technical arguments (that they do not understand) or any reference to expectation bias, placebo effect etc. You just have to read any thread on this topic and there is a clear negative correlation between technical ability and belief in DAW "sound". Even if you did a complete and comprehensive test proving without any doubt that all DAWs sound the same, you will still have the audio equivalent of creationists insisting they heard a difference. Why waste your time on the hopeless? Alistair


http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/703073-ultimate-do-daws-sound-different-test.html
post edited by backwoods - 2012/03/08 01:51:16
cliffsp8
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/08 02:19:41 (permalink)
I'm sorry to be blunt but all this talk about subtle differences has nothing to do with the OP's initial request for help.

He states clearly that there is a distinct difference in clarity and loudness, and he is not testing with a mix but it is whilst live input and monitoring.

My money is on ASIO Direct Monitoring and that if he disables ASIO DM in his interface, then the difference will disappear.

my 2c...

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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/08 02:22:31 (permalink)
Okay............... it's time................................................





Die damn you......


*No horses were harmed in the making of this emoticon.
Jason Gray
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/08 03:35:57 (permalink)

PERCEPTION

The mechanical process described so far is only the beginning of our perception of sounds. The mechanisms of sound interpretation are poorly understood, in fact is not yet clear whether all people interpret sounds in the same way. Until recently, there has been no way to trace the wiring of the brain, no way to apply simple stimuli and see which parts of the nervous system respond, at least not in any detail. The only research method available was to have people listen to sounds and describe what they heard. The variability of listening skills and the imprecision of the language combined to make psycho-acoustics a rather frustrating field of study. Some of the newest research tools show promise of improving the situation, so research that is happening now will likely clear up several of the mysteries.

[link=http://artsites.ucsc.edu/ems/music/tech_background/te-03/teces_03.html]http://artsites.ucsc.edu/...nd/te-03/teces_03.html]http://artsites.ucsc.edu/...nd/te-03/teces_03.html[/link]

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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/08 03:42:10 (permalink)
People!!!
 
Does everyone, for reasons I kouldn't possibly understand, have Jeff Evans on 'ignore'?
 
I'm the biggest "all DAWs sound the same"-kamper around, but I'm intrigued by his truly interesting tests. Nulling residue 12-18 dB down may or may not be easily heard in kontekst, but it's sertainly orders of magnitude more signifikant than any konverter, not to mention master klokk, shootout I've seen on Gearslutz (where zealots are klaiming residues of -50 to -70 dB and lower would akkount for "night and day" differences in the final mix).
 
Shouldn't someone be challenging his results? Maybe he forgets some parameters or something?
 
Sven
post edited by SvenArne - 2012/03/08 03:50:29





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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/08 03:52:25 (permalink)
I'm convinced that horse has faked its own death and is now living it up in Panama.
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/08 04:36:00 (permalink)
Thanks Sven for the interest. Those who are interested I imagine are reading my posts. I am not sure what I could do differently. But I did have an idea. It might be to add and subtract the required amount of gain to the original waves so that when all the faders are at unity the perfect mix results. This instead of setting the faders the way I am doing it for each track. Some are on 0 dB but I am only using whole numbers for fader positions.

So if the faders are all at unity I could print a few mixes in different DAW's that way and see how they compare. That may take any fader differences out.

I am not using plugins or anything just the summing part of it all. I believe I am getting the correct null point because it seems to be the lowest level when it happens. (And the after null artifacts sounds most normal, tone wise)

I still find it interesting that the Sonar/Studio One combination produced after null artifcats that only went up to 500 Hz or so and then just dropped off immediately. Pro Tools/Studio One combination sounds like the opposite. Nothing till 500 Hz or so and then only mids and no highs in the artifacts.

Typically I am adding anything from 13 db to 20 db of gain and 30 db in some cases to get the artifacts to read the same level as the program itself. (on the VU's that is)



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LJB
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/08 04:59:54 (permalink)
Jeff, I like the way you work. Let's see more of it.

IMO, and as I have said before, and without testing, the only way all DAWs could be identical in sound was if they all used the same algorithms...

Seth, let's hear it, are you guys all part of the BORG behind closed doors, or do you use different code and design philosophy? :O)

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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/08 05:26:22 (permalink)
FastBikerBoy


Okay............... it's time................................................





Die damn you......


*No horses were harmed in the making of this emoticon.

If I null the horse, do they all die the same?





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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/08 05:26:46 (permalink)
cliffsp8


I'm sorry to be blunt but all this talk about subtle differences has nothing to do with the OP's initial request for help.

He states clearly that there is a distinct difference in clarity and loudness, and he is not testing with a mix but it is whilst live input and monitoring.

My money is on ASIO Direct Monitoring and that if he disables ASIO DM in his interface, then the difference will disappear.

my 2c...

If I understand this correctly, the OP probably has 2 signal paths, one slightly delayed.
Yes, that explains the muddiness and the different volume.
 
@brozobob: Could you test this? And please, let us know your results?
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/08 05:33:40 (permalink)
Thanks for doing the tests Jeff. I've been in the recording studio these last few days with an important client so couldn't really couldn't spend time in the cakewalkathon of debates. Love to see some more findings and very interesting read. 

John T, I'm over your trolling for arguments just to argue. /tolerance overload..  I was thinking I could feel that warm sparkly feeling we once had, but alas, I may just have to move on with a block. 

Everyone else, Im happy this debate is up and have found some great feedback. Noel seems to be on something with ASIO direct monitoring as a possible suspect, that maybe great news. When I get some time Ill be running tests too so we can get down to the bottom of this! 

Best Regards,











post edited by Scott Lee - 2012/03/08 05:48:29

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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/08 05:38:55 (permalink)
I'd be interested see the files, if you can upload them somewhere.

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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/08 05:42:46 (permalink)
Jeff Evans


Update !

I have done some more testing. I have a Mac Laptop with ProTools 7.4 on it and Logic 8. I did the same mix in those and compared them to Studio One.

When I am null adjusting, I am moving timing of one of the waves very small amounts left and right and altering levels of one of them very fine amounts too until the lowest possible null output is obtained.

Interesting comparing Pro Tools with Studio One. What is left over is also very small amounts of null artifacts this time nothing below about 1 Khz and its mainly about mids and virtually no highs. Very low down in level too, more than 30 db down compared to the main signal. So maybe one could say that Pro Tools and Studio One agree in how the bass seems to be.

Logic and Studio One not quite so good. Some bass but more mids and highs in general, sounds like they don't agree so much. Pretty low down in level but more like 16 to 18 db down.

Pro Tools with Sonar left some more bottom end null artifacts behind while Sonar and Logic matched up very well for some reason. Nothing below 500 Hz in the artifacts and pretty quiet too. Highs cancelled out perfectly.

There are differences in how DAW's are summing this mix for example and you can hear it quite clearly in what is left over after the null. Whether it is enough to alter the final sound I am not sure. Because if you listen to any one of them at their full level on their own they all sound very very good. There are no standouts.

Interesting though that I did not get a perfect null with any combination. If you are just playing back a stereo file and passing it through to the output that may not be enough. I am summing 18 tracks and there are differences. The best null BTW was Pro Tools and Studio One. No bass or highs just a touch of mids and over 30 dB down in level. Worst null was Studio One and Logic. A lot of the spectrum got through and not as quiet.

I am confident the track levels are all set perfectly OK because in the best null case there is absolutely nothing in the low end or high end.

Although the nulls and their artifacts are quite clear and easy to hear I am not sure how I would go in a blind fold test though!

Freddie is a bit wrong too. In post #136 he makes out Sonar is a complete winner over the others mentioned but there is no complete winner. (with my test) Remember my test does not involve any plugins or instruments. The moment you start using those then any of those programs can sound good and they will start moving in their own direction more and that is what Freddie may be liking in terms of Sonar and that is perfectly fine.
 
Right, agree with you. Still 64bit double precision audio engine are huge difference in audio quality & mixing accurate DB.
It’s when you start adding EQs, plugins & Instruments you start hearing the biggest difference in difference DAW’s, anti aliasing audio. Same goes with 48 kHz frequency and up VS 44.1 kHz.
 
 
To RAP it UP!
I have seen this countless of times. Years after years…We will have this endless discussion about x64 and 64bit double precision that it isn’t a difference until AVID add it to PRO TOOLS. Then just over a night everyone will recognize it’s a huge difference with x64bit and 64bit double precision audio engine. It because AVID have add it and told it is so to their entire ZOMBI PRO TOOLS FAN-BOYS “that have stop thinking for them self”. Now everyone can agree and recognize that it is NOW an enormous HUGE difference because now Pro Tools has it too.  

 
Until then OVER and OUT!
 
post edited by Freddie H - 2012/03/08 05:49:03


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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/08 05:48:15 (permalink)
Freddie is a bit wrong too.


Who knew???...

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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/08 05:49:31 (permalink)
Okay who let freddie out  


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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/08 06:06:47 (permalink)
Scott Lee


John T, I'm over your trolling for arguments just to argue.
 
 
Straight out of Weak Arguments 101 - simply duck the question. Well done you.

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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/08 06:14:09 (permalink)
Incidentally, why do you parade that "(ASCAP)" thing like a credential? Absolutely anyone can become a lifetime ASCAP member for $35, and there are no other barriers to entry as you no doubt know.

May seem a bit of a tangent, that, but looking back at your arguments earlier in the thread, they're entirely ego-driven: "I know cause I'm all like Pro and I've worked in big studio X so nyer".

To me, this kind of flailing for what are pretty meagre scraps of credibility doesn't indicate someone who is confident in what they're saying. It's basically a pre-emptive appeal to authority.

Just saying like, since we're apparently getting all pouty and personal.

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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/08 06:22:14 (permalink)
Ok, this thread rocks first off....secondly, if we can all keep our cool during this, it may turn into one of the best threads ever. :) Third, I've heard about everyone doing tests yet I've yet to see anyone give us any files in this particular thread unless I've missed them. So, I did the files for you. I went into this as a basic, know nothing home recording guy. Forget all the science and all that stuff for a second unless you choose to allow it to make more of this than it is. Here it is...

Guitar Rig 4 using preset Twang Country and "small room" for the reverb. The verb was the only alteration in the preset.

Direct box right into my soundcard.

3 different popular DAWS used, one of course is Sonar X1.

3 different performances of the same thing played in each DAW individually and exported out of that DAW.

All files recorded and exported at as close to -3dB as possible.

All recorded using the same front end...no eq's in any of the DAWS or my front end, no compression....Guitar Rig 4 straight in.

I purposely used a guitar with dead strings (6 weeks on them)

Carvin DC 400 DD Custom using single coil split humbucker using Carvin active electronics. Active eq's centered/not used. Bridge pup used.

16/44 waves, no bells and whistles, no 64 bit software, no 64 bit mix engine, no floating points....straight in, DAW for DAW. You guys can do your own tests and draw your own conclusions. 

I just played a little riff here showing some chords as well as a little lead riff opening. I'll share which DAWS were used in a few days as well as what front end and sound card was used.

Now, before someone starts saying "yeah, but what soundcard did you use" and "well, it's not 24/48 with 32 bit float...and it's not using Sonar 64 with the 64 bit mix engine....and what pre did you use and...and...you're not going to notice because of...." What do your ears tell you in this simple test? Other than sometimes I hit certain chords/riffs harder than others, if there are differences, they aren't apparent enough to make a stink about in my opinion. I'm sure some people are noticing something somewhere...but I'm not on this end in this test. I'll leave it at that for now.

Here are the files: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/DANNYTEST.ZIP

-Danny

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Danny Danzi
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/08 06:25:50 (permalink)
P.S. 140 BPM on these.

-Danny

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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/08 06:34:19 (permalink)
Always good to see you chime in a thread like this. Kicking some sense into it, without  the violent kicking. I'll check your examples when I get home.
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/08 06:46:30 (permalink)
Thanks Danny, very interesting. What would also be useful, though, would be to import the *same* perfomance into each DAW and then render that out.

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Danny Danzi
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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/08 06:53:40 (permalink)
SEV: thanks, that's very kind of you. :)

Not a problem John....I hope it helps out a bit. :)

John, with the files provided, couldn't people do what you mentioned? You know...just take one of them and bring it into a DAW of choice and then export to see if they hear a difference? Am I misunderstanding you by chance and it's something I have to do on this end? LOL! I'm operating on just about no sleep...lol...I'm probably going to regret the horrible playing in those files once I sleep and then listen to them when I wake up....I can feel a cringe coming on. LOL!

If there's something else you need me to do with the files (besides delete them and make new ones with better playing lol) let me know and I'll try to help out in any way I can. :)

-Danny

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Re:Sound Quality of Sonar X1 2012/03/08 06:54:04 (permalink)
Hi all,with my max respect and with big surprise to see the Cake's team replies,repeat max respect,i'm very tired(breath)of this threads.You believe that when label's A\R hear your fantastic demo he takes care of DAW esoteric sound? So ,trust the daw you are using and make good songs.Good luck to all!!Best.Roby

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