did you speak to sales? this is not my first upgrade or purchase from cakewalk direct and normally do not have any problems. but as you mentioned it does seem strang that cakewalk do not know if they have sent your order. when you bought dim pro did you not get a order number straight away? did you not write order of transation number when buying?
i went straight through to sales and he was able to confirm what was happening to my order within seconds. its a bit strange that you did not get an order number seconds after ordering via email.

Yeah, same lame (UK) service here too...

Ordered Sonar 5 PE on the 2nd of this month (August) and received my serial / reg code. Since then, zip. I actually emailed Cake last Thursday telling them to cancel my order but, again, I ain't heard s*it since. Actually, reading this forum, I don't expect to either.

Cakewalk take first prize when it comes to worlds lamest customer service.

Hi-

Sorry if this has been addressed already, but has Cakewalk announced yet what the SE5 to SE6 upgrade will cost?

Thanks-

-Susan

Nice post DK...you took the words right out of my mouth.
TB

Curious, and please don't flame me for this but, since I am on 4.0.2 and have not upgraded to 5 (nor do I have any intention of loading 5 onto my DAW - I'm waiting for 6), but am thinking about purchasing the upgrade so that I can get 6 for free.

Is it a EULA violation for me to give the copy of 5 to a buddy of mine who I've been trying to convert from other lesser software? I would want for him to be eligible for future upgrades, too - that is why I am asking.

I feel it would be a waste for me to have 5 just sitting in the box when I might be able to 'sell' someone else on the fine code that is Sonar.

I certainly don't want to break the rules or screw myself from future support and upgrade eligibility, but if I don't crack the seal on 5, couldn't someone else enjoy it who might actually use it and become a Cakewalk lifer?

I just want a free upgrade. If I have 5 PE, I just want to be able to upgrade to 6 regardless of when I purchased 5.

sd

ORIGINAL: Daddy?!

Curious, and please don't flame me for this but, since I am on 4.0.2 and have not upgraded to 5 (nor do I have any intention of loading 5 onto my DAW - I'm waiting for 6), but am thinking about purchasing the upgrade so that I can get 6 for free.

Is it a EULA violation for me to give the copy of 5 to a buddy of mine who I've been trying to convert from other lesser software? I would want for him to be eligible for future upgrades, too - that is why I am asking.

Can't do that...

I feel it would be a waste for me to have 5 just sitting in the box when I might be able to 'sell' someone else on the fine code that is Sonar.

I certainly don't want to break the rules or screw myself from future support and upgrade eligibility, but if I don't crack the seal on 5, couldn't someone else enjoy it who might actually use it and become a Cakewalk lifer?

Nope...The EULA is very specific about "non-transferrable" limitations with the software...

ORIGINAL: HansDampf

Nope...The EULA is very specific about "non-transferrable" limitations with the software...

This may be right for the US, but is often different in other countries. I am from Germany and here an EULA that is shown to you after you bought the software is generally not legal.

Back to the EULA: In Germany you are also allowed to sell the software you bought. Because at the time you bought the license (= the right to use it) the original owner has no owner rights about that specific license anymore, because he sold it. Any contract that differs from that is illegal at that point. You also are allowed to buy i.e. a fresh Sonar 4, buy the upgrade to 5 with your legally bought/owned Sonar 4-Serial and sell Sonar 4 again afterwards.

just my2cents,

Hans Dampf

Hans,
This is not necessarily true. It is actually quite a legal minefield but you cannot say I live in Germany and German law says "X" therefore "X" applies to me. Most EULA's (I haven't checked the SONAR EULA) say something like "this agreement is governed by the laws of the state of..." so the German legal system has no input into the situation. The fact that you are in Germany may limit a litigant's power to enforce US law (or any other jurisdication) but it doesn't make them liable to abide with German law.

For example, let's assume the SONAR EULA is governed by the state of Massachusetts and you sell your copy of SONAR 5 to a friend and keep SONAR 6. Under the EULA, when you and your friend try to upgrade Cakewalk have the right to refuse to let either of you upgrade and tell you to both to stop using the software. In practical terms, there is nothing they can do to stop you using the software and, even if they took legal action against you it is possible that the German authorities would refuse to enforce the EULA because of the laws you mention. However, there is nothing the German courts can do to force Cakewalk to send you upgrades so if you wanted to fight them you would have to take action in a US court which would act according to Massachusetts law.

This is a bit of an over-simplification but my basic point is that the rest of the world doesn't have to abide by German law.

DK an TCbetka
thanks for your comments. I thought V3 was killer and the upgrade to V4 with the folders a good move. Yes, I think that an upgrade for Coevolutionary Reverb alone is worth it. The fact of the Roland V stuff makes it an unbelievable bargain. I have had gear aquasition syndrome for about 35 yrs, I caught it from a white triple pick up SG with a gold Gibson tremelo
hanging on the wall of a now defunct music store about 1968. What I have found is that at this point in my life I have what I want and so tend to buy stuff like firwire cables and microphone shock mounts for my music. It is the same in software. I love cakewalk software and have purchased some upgrades just to be supportive of the company and always they had fun stuff to play with (Tassman3, V sampler etc.), but most of the new features the cakewalk is adding now has more limited use to me. The Roland V stuff is nearly identical to the Yamaha software I got with my Yamaha i88X. I do think that having all my music production under one roof (meaning one piece of software) is an advantage.
At a burning man event near Seattle, I talked with a guy who is a Mackie Traction Product Demonstrator. He uses Traction to track and Sonar to tweak and like me also has Sony Vegas. I use Vegas initally and mainly for video edit and then tweak in Sonar.
I wish I were more computer literate, but every upgrade is a hassle, getting V sampler to work with V4PE is a nightmare and so this alone is enough reason not to upgrade to V5PE when V6PE is immenent. In addition Cakewalk doesn't broadcast (understandably) what you LOSE with every upgrade, this actually works to our benefit. For example, I have gotten Tassman and Vsampler in prior PE, these can be independantly upgraded and so every new PE has new extra software and drops the older plug ins/software which means we can enjoy the old and the new without added cost. The downside is that I have to look at the new Sonar pkg with a fine tooth comb, if I had upgraded from V4PE to V5studio, I would have lost my sorround plug ins. They don't broadcast this information, so if I had not taken the trouble to find out and just trusted, I would have found out that in some ways an upgrade from V4PE to V5 studio is a STEP BACKWARD.
When I ask sales direct on the phone then they will admit it, but if I ask them what I lose by upgrading, they will not be forthcoming. So V6PE is an unknown to you and me and so it makes sense to know what it is before buying it. My expectation and my issue as well is that the price to upgrade from V4PE to V6PE will be the same as the upgrade from V5PE and if it is not, then I will be exploring alternatives. I feel a little burned from my last experience and if they follow traditional upgrades path, then there is not problem and I am now in tune with the Cakewalk schedule of upgrade which in the past is not the case. The last issue is that just as in buying hardware my needs are met, if I never upgrade above V4, I am still a very happy man.

Hans,

The counter argument that the vendor makes is that they never sold you (or the distributor) the product, just a license to use it. They are saying the EULA isn't a contract of sale but a license to use. Their argument would be that if you went to Avis, rented a car and then sold the car that would be illegal since you are not the lawful owner of the car. Similarly, if you sell SONAR they claim it is illegal because you are not the lawful owner of SONAR, Cakewalk is.

I'm not making any comment here about which courts would or wouldn't uphold this interpretation but it's the interpretation that the Cakewlak lawyers would put (and is in the EULA) in the very unlikely event that a case like this ever got to court.

Another interesting question is what would happen if you sold your SONAR to a friend and then Cakewalk refused to allow upgrades. There is probably little the German authorities could do to force them to provide upgrades but would your friend have a case against you in German law for misleading him about his rights? Would you, as the vendor in this case, end up having to buy him a full copy as compensation? .

Responding to selling old versions of cakewalk.
I used to be a professional musician and I have many friends that used to be professional musicians in the Seattle area. In 1970
I made $600 an hour playing music. If I played now I could not even make minimum wage. This is the same as with all my former pro friends. We are all still making music at home, our music, but not performing for money. Without going into the reasons for the death of the pro music scene in Seattle, the bottom line is that we can't make back expenses and so there is no
profit motive to go thru the hassles of playing in a band since there is no living to be made anymore.
Software is the same way. The reasons that there is a Sonar 4 5 6 and some day 7 8 is that the company has to pay its bills and make a profit. I do not think that new sales will allow this, but I bet the main income is from uprades to new versions.
Of course both are important.
In Sonars case, anyone can buy the junior version of Sonar, I think if we want to enjoy improvements and additions to the version we have, we must support it. Even now as Microsoft is rolling out Vista, I expect that in a few yrs XP will not be supported and as we upgrade our computers must upgrade our software as well. This issue of selling old versions is a little like selling a used CD, the fact is no revenue stream, no improvements. We are fortunate with Cakewalk, we have no dongle to deal with and so the copy protection is easy to deal with. I don't really get the value of copy protection since it is so easily subverted.
If there is a link between this post and my others, it is that I think that recording software is a little like a marriage, the manufacture makes me go oooh and ahhh and I reward them with cash (we have to pay upfront just like in real life)
but if I feel screwed, but not kissed then I will take that into consideration

HansDampf

I just wanted to mention that it is weird for me that the seller can tell the buyer what he is allowed to do with the product (here: to sell it again), even after it was sold

Hans --

The law is often weird. And not just about software, or intellectual property.
It is entirely legal (in the US, and I expect in most other countries) to impose various conditions as part of the terms of sale.

For example - my wife and I own a house, in New York state. When we bought the house, we were required to agree to a "restrictive covenant" as part of the terms of sale. The seller (from whom we bought the house) was legally obligated to require us to agree to the covenant. If/when we sell the house, my wife and I are now legally obligated to require the buyer to agree to the same covenant ... if we don't, it will be very difficult for us to legally transfer title to the property.

Now, certain provisions of the covenant itself are illegal, and unenforceable. It specificially forbids sale of the house to any member of several specified minority groups. As it happens, my wife is a member of one of those minorities; the lawyer who represented us when we bought the house is also a member of the same minority. The covenant dates from around 1948 (when the house was built and first sold), and certain provisions of the covenant are unenforceable under current US law (and rightly so). Nonetheless, the covenant as a whole is a "legal instrument" that is binding in perpetuity upon all persons who assume title to the property (all buyers, all sellers).

As you can imagine, we found it deeply offensive (and illogical) to be forced to agree, in writing, that persons like my wife could not buy our house .... in order for us to buy the house. Never mind the assurances from our lawyer (who was also offended) that such ownership restrictions would never be enforced in practice --- or that the legal costs involved with breaking the covenant could amount to a sizeable portion of the value of the house! But, sign we did ... after a week of thinking about it, and weighing many factors not relevant here.

Why do I bring this up? Certainly not to equate Cakewalk license agreements to the racist/bigoted ownership covenant that "encumbers" my house -- they are not remotely similar.

My point is this: legally, many kinds of conditions can be imposed on a buyer, and the buyer must agree -- or decline to make the purchase. If the buyer doesn't like the conditions of sale, the simple remedy is -- don't buy. Another remedy is -- get the law changed. But (at least in the US), you cannot simply ignore or dismiss a condition of sale because you are personally opposed to it, whether on deeply-held moral/ethical/philosophical principles, or simply because you don't like it.

From what you've said, there are many aspects of German law which seem more reasonable to me than corresponding aspects of US law. While I strongly support intellectual property rights for software developers -- and for musicians, and other creative persons --- I am also quite troubled by how IP rights are currently handled in the US. However - since I live and work in the US, my choices are to obey the law or emigrate. I can certainly advocate for changes to laws I consider unreasonable, but I'm still bound to obey them while I live here. (It's unfortunate, to say the least, that the persons currently running the US are disinclined to follow international laws and legal norms, in areas ranging from trade disputes to Kyoto to armed conflicts, but that doesn't give ordinary citizens like me the right to act in a similarly cavalier fashion. Don't mean to hijack the thread, however....)

- Jim

question to cakewalk;
does this offer apply to canadian residents.
if so , i want to order the upgrade through a retailer(Long and MacQuade) how does the Aug 30 deadline work here?
do i have to place the order by Aug 30 or pay for it by Aug 30?
can i even take advantage of this discount if i live in B.C. Canada?

I wonder why Cakewalk expects people to be enthused about upgrading to version 6, without saying what's better about that new version! Why the secrecy?

I read through this long thread but didn't see my particular question specifically addressed. Does anyone know if the free Sonar 6 upgrade applies to a Sonar 5 Competitive Upgrade purchase made this month? I use a popular competing product but want to switch to Sonar for several reasons (V-Vocal and 64-bit architecture among them). Zzounds sells the Sonar 5 Competitive Upgrade for $399. If I purchased it, would I still be eligible for the $100 rebate and upgrade to Sonar 6 when it becomes available?

Thank you.