rbowser

Kroneborge


Hmm, ok let's see here.  

Been using Sonar since version 2 or so.   It was always super intututive to me, much more so than everything else I tried.  Cubase, FL Studio, Digital performer, etc.

So I've been happily using it for 8 or so years now (give or take).   I've very rarely had to use the manual, if I wanted to do something, you could usually figure it out within 30 seconds.   It just made sense.

My other hardware, Mackie HR 824 monitors, Yahmaha XK-8 Midi keyboard, EMU 1820m soundcard, and a ton of software.  Komplete 5, East West Symphonic orchestra, Izotope stuff etc.

Specific problems I've had
I can't find anything (this is the most frustrating.   For example, why isn't there just a view synth rack etc,   maybe I don't want everything in the inspector??? 

Huge problems with snap to grid (I can't get it to work at all in the piano view).  

Why can't I enlarge the piano view, and still have access to snap to grid controls?  

Constant drop outs and sound distortions with CPU etc no where near max (Intel I7 with 12 gb of ram, probably using less than 25%).

Fast bounce to clip is out of synch with tempo.


I'm not planning on going to another platform, I really doubt they've gotten much better, and I don't want to learn a new one.   In fact, I don't want to learn a new sonar either.  I just want it to work the way it's always has.  Fast and intututive.

If not, well, Sonar 8.5 really does just about everything doesn't it.

I really like your post Kroneborge.  It's not hysterical, it just seems like an honest, calm reporting of what your experience with X1 is so far.

"...why isn't there just a view synth rack etc..."  Yes, all the new paths have to be learned.  There's a new curve to master, just when we were hoping for a fix of long standing problems.  The reason for making everything so tucked away in sub-menus seems to be, as I see it, in the interest of making a nice clean, almost empty looking work space.  This, also IMHO, was done in reaction to the common criticism that Sonar was "too cluttered" looking.  For those of us who were getting along fine with Sonar before this, the answer to that "cluttered" criticism was/is "WHO CARES?---At least it's obvious where everything is!"

"...Huge problems with snap to grid (I can't get it to work at all in the piano view)...."  That's because it doesn't work in PRV.  Apparently there are acknowledged bugs that we're trusting will be fixed.

"...Why can't I enlarge the piano view, and still have access to snap to grid controls?..."  Actually you can have an enlarged PRV with the grid controls still visible.  One of my screensets is exactly that.  You need to expand the PRV as far as you want (I like it with a single Track View track visible on top for handy reference and editing) and then make that part of your template.

"...Fast bounce to clip is out of synch with tempo..."  It's another apparent and rather major bug that needs to be fixed, since this isn't an uncommon problem for people to have.

"...Sonar 8.5 really does just about everything doesn't it..."  Yes, it actually does.  The tabbed view in Sonar 8+ is the same thing as the much touted X1 dock.  The browser supposedly works better in X1, though I haven't found that to be the case, since there's another acknowledged bug that you have to drag sound files in TWICE before they "take"--(confirmed by Scott Garrigus) - and most people actually composing music instead of pasting together clips don't have a huge need for the browser anyway.  Many people find the old "smart tool" just as efficient as the new one - one really could do most MIDI editing with that one tool in previous Sonars, the way it would change functions depending on where you were on the screen.

And so on.

Your post is appreciated because it's a reasonable expression of disappointment with X1.  Thanks.

Randy B.

 
Randy (and Kroneborge) - thanks for the incisive posts, and the calm, measured and erudite way you composed them.
 
I mentioned elsewhere that I like X1 and I'm trying to use it all the time, fortunately, I haven't had any crashes or major problems with it, other than some of the simple things you both allude to.
 
Randy, I suggested a new Module for the Control Bar that would contain all the 'Views' buttons we had in previous versions, and yes, bring back the Synth Rack as a 'View'.
 
Such a Module would surely please those who prefer the icons for changing views, and those who prefer using two-click menus or keyboard shortcuts would have the option not to show the module in their Control Bar.
 
As I work mostly with audio (aside from Superior Drummer 2, I rarely use the Browser - so on the occasions I want to make some settings changes in SD2, I have to open the browser, open the synth rack and close the browser; it's easier just to minimise SD2 and restore it when I need it!
 
And as to S8x being cluttered, I also don't understand that - I customised S8.5 to have just eight buttons in the Track View, ones I use all the time (aside from the main menu bar you can't remove of course).
 
Give me back the ability to 'really' customise my workspace in X1, especially a 'Views' module, and I'd be a much happier bunny.
 
 
Steve
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

10Ten

ProjectM

10Ten

Trolling is another one of those words that has an actual definition and it has nothing to do with disagree with you.

Agreed. What you are doing is not disagreeing - it's trolling. Or just stupid at best.

Sorry, but I am correct and I not trolling as I am on topic. The need of your side to denigrate all that dare to oppose you is completely silly. But, now we have the facts about X1 supporters. You should have told us the deal from the beginning.

May I suggest a radical concept? Why not just stop feeding off each other then?


I would rather read about what the issues are, for you, then to read about all the side guff that seems to be occuring here...if you treated your issues with a little more respect..by not getting into it with everyone who says that they are not having those particular issues you might not get these kinds of responses all the time. 


Especially posts about people lying about not having issues...makes the matter worse..not better...

Lowline


"Which brings me to my issue with the forums of late. People being dishonest and trying to minimize the issues others are having simply because they are going to support Sonar no matter what."

No 10Ten, the real problem is people insisting that everyone who doesn't agree with their view of Sonar is a liar, an idiot, or both.  

That's on both sides btw, however it seems to be far more prevalent amongst those who are having problems.  This is reasonably understandable due to anger and frustration. However a reasonable level of respect for other peoples opinions needs to given.

I didn't do that.

Oh and Steve, totoally agreed about the customization.

It reminds me of switching from Excel 2003 (which I love) to Excel 2007 which I hate.   Don't give me a stupid ribbon.   Let me customize my toolbars, and make them work they way  I want.

I've been taking the Mike approach.  I am currently running 8.5.2 and I still have my disks for 7, and even my old proaudio 9 disk.  I have really like the product since the old DOS days when I was learning how to sequence songs.  I have been annoyed by all the unexptected glitches on my projects since I loaded the tool (midi pitch wheel not engaging when I bounce tracks, latency issues when I use a softsyth that only show up when in record mode, nudge key not working even after key binding was confirmed set, things like that).

I will be the first to admit that many of my issues are more annoyances than dealbreakers...and that many of them might just be me not knowing the product as well I knew my previous versions.  that being said, I am about to launch a big project that will take me about 3 to 6 months I just don't trust X1 for the job.  Not yet, anyway.  So I am kissing X1 good bye for awhile and returning to a very tried and true 8.5.  At least until they get a few more versions/patches under their belts.

10Ten

Lowline


"Which brings me to my issue with the forums of late. People being dishonest and trying to minimize the issues others are having simply because they are going to support Sonar no matter what."

No 10Ten, the real problem is people insisting that everyone who doesn't agree with their view of Sonar is a liar, an idiot, or both.  

That's on both sides btw, however it seems to be far more prevalent amongst those who are having problems.  This is reasonably understandable due to anger and frustration. However a reasonable level of respect for other peoples opinions needs to given.

I didn't do that.

Maybe, maybe not, but you always present yourself in an extremely forthright and confrontational manner.  That is rarely condusive to reasonable discussion. 

Lowline

10Ten

Lowline


"Which brings me to my issue with the forums of late. People being dishonest and trying to minimize the issues others are having simply because they are going to support Sonar no matter what."

No 10Ten, the real problem is people insisting that everyone who doesn't agree with their view of Sonar is a liar, an idiot, or both.  

That's on both sides btw, however it seems to be far more prevalent amongst those who are having problems.  This is reasonably understandable due to anger and frustration. However a reasonable level of respect for other peoples opinions needs to given.

I didn't do that.

Maybe, maybe not, but you always present yourself in an extremely forthright and confrontational manner.  That is rarely condusive to reasonable discussion. 

No, I didn't do that. Yes, I do give my opinion on my situation. It is your job to decide if that applies to you and your situation. If it does not, you should ignore it. What makes for reasonable discussion is clarity. I prefer that you tell me what you are thinking so we can discuss it instead of wasting time with guessing games. The problem is that a lot of people have their feelings hurt by just about everything instead just discussing the issue instead of the people.

What I don't get (and what I am reading in some other postings here) is that everyone who say he can just work with X1 suddenly have to prove they have no issue at all - or otherwise shut up and go away..

Well - NO!, NO! and NO! No way I am going to leave, just because I have no big huge showstoppers with X1! And I certainly I will not keep my mouth shut! What is this? The first step to censorship? Is this site a free speech site or a dictatorship of unhappy users?

Come one!

Shure - I never stated I did have no problems with X1 at all. Just take audiosnap.

BUT!!!! I don't use audiosnap at this moment. I can live without it until the next patch! So I (and that means my person, myself and nobody else) can use X1 and I like it! Yes!

Am I allowed to have no problems? Am I allowed to just going on without being frustrated or shouting "I go back to 8.5"? Am I free to do so? Or is the dictatorship of the frustrated people that ARE having problems that big nobody is allowed to say they have no problems with their NORMAL work?

Sorry - there are problems with X1, but they are in NO WAY big enough for ME to complain and stop using X1. And I am happy with X1 and the new workflow! I am not going to say other people MUST use X1, but I DO say there are a lot of people that simply have some minor problems, but are just happy with X1.

Oh - and before anyone going to accuse me of being a fanboy (lousy way to try to make someone to shut up).. I can assure you Sonar is not the only software I use (I use Ableton - and Ardour and Rosegarden under Linux). So I have no reason to defend Sonar more than other software. I just like it... that's all

I really hope this site turns into it helpfull state it had before, in stead of bashing users that have the nerve to say they don't have big problems....

10Ten

ProjectM

10Ten

Trolling is another one of those words that has an actual definition and it has nothing to do with disagree with you.

Agreed. What you are doing is not disagreeing - it's trolling. Or just stupid at best.

Sorry, but I am correct and I not trolling as I am on topic. The need of your side to denigrate all that dare to oppose you is completely silly. But, now we have the facts about X1 supporters. You should have told us the deal from the beginning.

He he, at least I can admit not to be correct all the time. Being called a liar is nothing I appreciate at all. And in this post you simply criticize for things that you usually do yourself. Grow up dude. What you write here is so utterly childish that I won't even comment on it

ProjectM

10Ten

ProjectM

10Ten

Trolling is another one of those words that has an actual definition and it has nothing to do with disagree with you.

Agreed. What you are doing is not disagreeing - it's trolling. Or just stupid at best.

Sorry, but I am correct and I not trolling as I am on topic. The need of your side to denigrate all that dare to oppose you is completely silly. But, now we have the facts about X1 supporters. You should have told us the deal from the beginning.

He he, at least I can admit not to be correct all the time. Being called a liar is nothing I appreciate at all. And in this post you simply criticize for things that you usually do yourself. Grow up dude. What you write here is so utterly childish that I won't even comment on it

All you have is ad hominem attacks. Good luck with that.

Kroneborge


"Why did you upgraded if you wanted everything to stay the same is what I don't get."

I upgraded because I've always upgraded and Sonar has always been getting better.   Same program, just a bit slicker with some new bells and whistles.

This time it's almost like a different program, that I have to spend a LOT of time trying to relearn.  If I wanted to do that I would have bought a different program. 

Of course you're right that each new upgrade has brought new things in, but before they always just seemed to make sense.   No need for a manual, no need to watch a video.  That's what has changed, and to me that's VERY sad.

Yup, that is indeed a good point you're making and that's what I understand many people, especially long timers, is frustrated by. And as I have tried to explain is that I really like that Sonar has changed and that I find it to be better than before. Up until now I've felt it's been more and more archaic to deal with and I simply got sick of it while peeking at Logic and S1 for example. I do, however, understand that people miss the old GUI design and that people want to upgrade to stay current. That's why I've been upgrading Sonar every year too.

The quote you pulled out there is something I wrote because my new best friend, 10Ten, seem to be making a point that everything is so perfect with 8.5 all the time and doesn't seem to accept that people like the X1 GUI. well, enough about that.

I can agree that there should be ways to put Sonar back "to normal" for user who want that, but when I saw the videos of X1 I almost immediately ditched every idea of changing DAWs because X1 was the "new" DAW I wanted. This is true for me, but not for everyone else

FastBikerBoy


I'd just stop feeding him.....

Unfortunately there are users who have very little constructive to say, or genuine questions to ask. I've nothing against pointing out the faults of anything but if fault pointing is all someone can do and aren't interested in genuine solutions then they aren't even worth communicating with.

I'd simply suggest you look through a few old posts and draw your conclusions. I have and I'm sure many others do to.

Here's a couple to be going on with..

http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=2056877

http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=2056818


I'll try to help or have an intelligent conversation with anyone even if we disagree. But BS I can't be bothered with. I have an in-built ability to filter such nonsense out and stick it in my "written by a Terry" file. (you'll need to read the British adult comic VIZ to get that )

My advice would be learn to do the same.......

Yet you had time to launch this attack. Interesting.

SteveStrummerUK

Kroneborge


Oh and Steve, totally agreed about the customization.

It reminds me of switching from Excel 2003 (which I love) to Excel 2007 which I hate.   Don't give me a stupid ribbon.   Let me customize my toolbars, and make them work they way  I want.

 
Thanks Matthew - in a similar vein, I still use Word 2002 for the same sorts of reasons!
 
BTW, I don't know if anyone else has already done so, but I put in a Feature Request for a new "Views" Module, and that the synthrack should be reinstated on it as a 'View' option.
 
 
 
 
 
 

That's a great idea and hopefully it can be implemented soon;) The new control Bar is perfect for that!

BTW, still on Word 2002 my self, but I hear good things about the latest Office package. I might give'th a spin;)

Well ProjectM...

You don't have to buy the latest and newest Office package. Why don't just download OpenOffice or LibreOffice and give it a spin? Sure - It is not as versatile as the MS-Office suites, but it is free and more than enough for most moderate users. As long as you are not a "Power user" you cannot go wrong with something that's just free...

10Ten

ProjectM

trimph1


May I suggest a radical concept? Why not just stop feeding off each other then?

Yeah man, I agree. Sorry. I usually manage to not get carried away but some people really struck that nerve sometimes

Getting caught seems to have been the issue that did it.

Seriously man, stop being so fu*king judgmental and an assh0le! You don't know anything about me or my setup so don't make wrong guesses and use it to accuse me of things that are wrong. You're just trying to be rude here. You don't go on stepping on anyone's credibility and character like that.

My apology was for feeding an insulting trolling noob who keep attacking everyone who disagrees on his raging attack on Sonar. I stand by what I've said