Beepster
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 13:04:37
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cparmerlee
Beepster
rfreeze
Are the 12 month periods set, or do they start/end randomly based on when each user buys in?
I ask, because in my mind random would keep the Baker's marketing guys from dangling carrots on the other side of the line. This would give me more confidence in the continuous nature of the advertised feature release process.
The 12 months starts the day you buy in and ends 12 months later so the idea is a perpetually dangling carrot. You can see what's coming up next on one of the Cake pages but I don't currently have the link open to post it. Right now it is showing a drum replacement tool, some FX chain thingies and something else that I'm forgetting right now.
Rfreeze makes an interesting point. In the familiar model, Cakewalk (and most other companies) begin working in earnest on a new release after the most recent release is stabilized (I realize there is some overlap, but the basic model is true.) And this drives a natural development and marketing cycle that tends to be somewhere in the 1-2 year range between releases. That does cause revenues to be very "lumpy" which might be a problem for some companies.
With the model that Cake is trying to present, there wouldn't be such discretely defined release cycles and they surely hope to make the income less lumpy. But modern software development still favors major releases, especially for products as complex as SONAR. For them to make the subscriptions continuous beyond the first 12-month free period, they will have to do at least minor releases to the core product before that 12 months is up. otherwise, people will correctly conclude that nothing really has changed and the subscription plan is just an opaque way to raise prices.
I take the company at their word that they really do want to change the actual pattern of delivery and this is not just a marketing tactic. They have 12 months to demonstrate that.
Yes. This will be a trust based system and as I was saying in the CH yesterday I think if you trust Cake (and they prove worthy of that trust) it'll work. If you're a paranoid skeptic (which I usually am but not so much with Cake) then it won't. Still though at this very moment I'd say they've added enough cool stuff to make the initial buy in right now worth it. It is essentially X4 with whatever drops down the pipe in the next 12 months... which in the old pardigm would be X5. The Bakers will have to hustle though to retain trust which they seem more than enthusiastic about so I'm getting a good vibe about it. I do also get the feeling they MAY (or more likely Gibson) had been wanting to make it solely a subscription model a la Adobe but the backlash to the survey question was too severe. So now we get the best of both worlds. I think if they continue making it more useful to rock/guitar dinosaurs like me as they have been but also start focusing on adding things to please the EDM/Ableton/FL crowd they could really dominate the market. I used to do some security type stuff for dance hall type parties and knowing a lot of how those guys roll they're into the whole "drop cash to sustain as you need to to maintain the lifestyle/image" so monthly scripts would likely be a boon in that regard IF they made the program a little more DJ friendly. A stereotype perhaps but it's what I saw. Most of those dudes would rent their flashy tables and gear, borrow records, whatever so I could easily see them just wanting to snag a program for a month for gigs without dropping a whole wad all at once.
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Bonkwell
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 13:10:12
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brconflict
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 13:12:36
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Beepster
brconflict
I meant to ask earlier, and it certainly helps me decide, but is there a Release Notes doc for the new version(s)? I'd like to see a list of fixes/improvements, and new features. The video is not very revealing. Thanks!
Not exactly release notes but there is this...
https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR&language=3&help=NewFeatures.01.html
No list of bug fixes there. Just the documentation on the new features.
From what I see in the versions, it appears my upgrade path should be from X3 Producer to Sonar Professional. Only, I want the TS64 Transient Shaper. If I could get Professional and the Transient Shaper coming from X3, I might bite. It almost seems the $499 Platinum price is a mis-print. I can't find what the huge value difference is, other than plug-ins. But I certainly want to see if anything in Take Lanes was addressed. This is still an area I have numerous odd things happening and some gripes I have, but small potatoes to other features/improvements CW is rallying behind. If Take Lanes were left alone, I'm just fine sticking with X3 for free.
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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Beepster
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 13:17:48
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brconflict
Beepster
brconflict
I meant to ask earlier, and it certainly helps me decide, but is there a Release Notes doc for the new version(s)? I'd like to see a list of fixes/improvements, and new features. The video is not very revealing. Thanks!
Not exactly release notes but there is this...
https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR&language=3&help=NewFeatures.01.html
No list of bug fixes there. Just the documentation on the new features.
From what I see in the versions, it appears my upgrade path should be from X3 Producer to Sonar Professional. Only, I want the TS64 Transient Shaper. If I could get Professional and the Transient Shaper coming from X3, I might bite. It almost seems the $499 Platinum price is a mis-print. I can't find what the huge value difference is, other than plug-ins.
But I certainly want to see if anything in Take Lanes was addressed. This is still an area I have numerous odd things happening and some gripes I have, but small potatoes to other features/improvements CW is rallying behind.
If Take Lanes were left alone, I'm just fine sticking with X3 for free.
AFAIK you can use all the old tools from your previous versions in Professional and Platinum and aside from the Prochannel stuff (because it does not exist in Artist) you should be able to use everything in Artist as well. But if you own X3 Pro your upgrade price to Platinum is not $499. It is $149 for the intro period and then it will go up to $199. $499 is for brand new customers.
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Beepster
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 13:21:19
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Oh and Take Lanes appear to be unchanged as far as workflow but I'm assuming they've fixed some of the last remaining glitches with them (I hope).
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Atsuko
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 13:23:34
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SteveStrummerUK
Anderton
But remember, the big advantage compared to Adobe is you get to keep stuff. If you want to upgrade, you upgrade. If you don't, you don't but you still get to keep what you paid for.
Craig, with the greatest respect, and with apologies for quoting you slightly out of context, as I detailed in THIS POST, there is also a distinct disadvantage compared to the Adobe model that (obviously) is never being mentioned by you and others in this thread.
Taking up an Adobe Subscription Plan doesn't require any initial purchase of a software licence. A new subscriber simply starts paying the same as everyone else, regardless of their previous loyalty or which versions they already own. There is no tiered payment structure for identical products, and there is no requirement to pay a 'fee' to join.
I recently subscribed to the Adobe Photography Plan (Photoshop CC + Lightroom 5) as a new user, and I pay the same as everyone else. A new user to the Cakewalk plan being rolled out still has to buy the software licence for $499, which is basically what you keep when you pay a year up front or complete 12 consecutive monthly payments.
As I said in the post I linked to, either model can be argued to be better or worse than the other - that's not the point I'm making. What I am saying is that making any comparisons to the Adobe modus operandi, when it's only mentioned that their model doesn't allow you to continue to use the software if you stop subscribing, is slightly disingenuous because it's never mentioned that you don't get to keep the software (i.e. continue to use the licence) because you weren't obliged to purchase it in the first place.
I actually subscribed to the Photography Plan precisely because I didn't have to initially shell out five or six hundred dollars in the first place. Yes, I know I have to keep subscribing to be able to use the products, but I did all the calculations and worked out that was a better deal for me long term than upgrading Lightroom 5 (which I do own) or continuing to struggle with Photoshop Elements.
The difference is that you'll never own the software, OTH, if you pay 12 months or the up front price, you'll own Sonar forever.
Desktop Intel I7 12GB RAM Win 10 64bit - Focusrite Scarlett 18i8 2nd gen - Roland A-300 PRO - Yamaha HS50M speakers - Sonar Platinum/CbB - Samplitude Pro X3 - Studio One 4 - Melodyne 4 Studio - Ozone 8 Adv - Neutron 2 Adv - RX7 Adv - ARC2 // Notebook Dell I7 8GB RAM Win 10 64bit
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dwardzala
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 13:24:59
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Beepster
And I know this has already been mentioned but for those extra content type goodies that get missed out on by those who let their membership lapse it would be nice if they were made available as extra add ons in the store... at a premium cost of course so as not to defeat the purpose of membership. Like let's say the Drum Replacement tool is something that is not part of the main program but I miss it and need it I could then pay X amount of dollars to buy it in the store. Of course, as I said, at a premium that would discourage A La Carte style abuse of what is starting to look like an honor/trust based system between Cake and the consumer (which I think is cool BTW just for the sheer FU to the traditional norms of modern corporate shenanigans).
I think the intent is that functionality (like drum replacement if I understand it correctly, or vocal sync) that is native to Sonar would be included in latest update that you would get when you re-up. I think its things like PC modules loops, or presets, etc. that would not be included in the latest update if they were released when you weren't enrolled.
DaveMain Studio- Core i5 @2.67GHz, 16Gb Ram, (2) 500Gb HDs, (1) 360 Gb HD MotU Ultralite AVB, Axiom 49 Midi Controller, Akai MPD18 Midi Controller Win10 x64 Home Sonar 2017.06 Platinum (and X3e, X2c, X1d) Mobile Studio - Sager NP8677 (i7-6700HQ @2.67MHz, 16G Ram, 250G SSD, 1T HD) M-Box Mini v. 2 Win 10 x64 Home Sonar 2016.10 Platinum Check out my original music: https://soundcloud.com/d-wardzala/sets/d-wardzala-original-music
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SteveStrummerUK
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 13:32:16
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Atsuko
SteveStrummerUK
Anderton
But remember, the big advantage compared to Adobe is you get to keep stuff. If you want to upgrade, you upgrade. If you don't, you don't but you still get to keep what you paid for.
Craig, with the greatest respect, and with apologies for quoting you slightly out of context, as I detailed in THIS POST, there is also a distinct disadvantage compared to the Adobe model that (obviously) is never being mentioned by you and others in this thread.
Taking up an Adobe Subscription Plan doesn't require any initial purchase of a software licence. A new subscriber simply starts paying the same as everyone else, regardless of their previous loyalty or which versions they already own. There is no tiered payment structure for identical products, and there is no requirement to pay a 'fee' to join.
I recently subscribed to the Adobe Photography Plan (Photoshop CC + Lightroom 5) as a new user, and I pay the same as everyone else. A new user to the Cakewalk plan being rolled out still has to buy the software licence for $499, which is basically what you keep when you pay a year up front or complete 12 consecutive monthly payments.
As I said in the post I linked to, either model can be argued to be better or worse than the other - that's not the point I'm making. What I am saying is that making any comparisons to the Adobe modus operandi, when it's only mentioned that their model doesn't allow you to continue to use the software if you stop subscribing, is slightly disingenuous because it's never mentioned that you don't get to keep the software (i.e. continue to use the licence) because you weren't obliged to purchase it in the first place.
I actually subscribed to the Photography Plan precisely because I didn't have to initially shell out five or six hundred dollars in the first place. Yes, I know I have to keep subscribing to be able to use the products, but I did all the calculations and worked out that was a better deal for me long term than upgrading Lightroom 5 (which I do own) or continuing to struggle with Photoshop Elements.
The difference is that you'll never own the software, OTH, if you pay 12 months or the up front price, you'll own Sonar forever.
Did you actually read my post? To summarise, you don't own the licence of one of the Adobe CC products because you are never obliged to purchase that licence in the first place. There is, to use my example with Cakewalk SONAR Platinum, no $499 'entry fee' when you first sign up to Adobe. If a new user to SONAR could immediately start paying $149/$199 per annum, you would have a fair comparison.
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Atsuko
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 13:41:23
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SteveStrummerUK
Atsuko
SteveStrummerUK
Anderton
But remember, the big advantage compared to Adobe is you get to keep stuff. If you want to upgrade, you upgrade. If you don't, you don't but you still get to keep what you paid for.
Craig, with the greatest respect, and with apologies for quoting you slightly out of context, as I detailed in THIS POST, there is also a distinct disadvantage compared to the Adobe model that (obviously) is never being mentioned by you and others in this thread.
Taking up an Adobe Subscription Plan doesn't require any initial purchase of a software licence. A new subscriber simply starts paying the same as everyone else, regardless of their previous loyalty or which versions they already own. There is no tiered payment structure for identical products, and there is no requirement to pay a 'fee' to join.
I recently subscribed to the Adobe Photography Plan (Photoshop CC + Lightroom 5) as a new user, and I pay the same as everyone else. A new user to the Cakewalk plan being rolled out still has to buy the software licence for $499, which is basically what you keep when you pay a year up front or complete 12 consecutive monthly payments.
As I said in the post I linked to, either model can be argued to be better or worse than the other - that's not the point I'm making. What I am saying is that making any comparisons to the Adobe modus operandi, when it's only mentioned that their model doesn't allow you to continue to use the software if you stop subscribing, is slightly disingenuous because it's never mentioned that you don't get to keep the software (i.e. continue to use the licence) because you weren't obliged to purchase it in the first place.
I actually subscribed to the Photography Plan precisely because I didn't have to initially shell out five or six hundred dollars in the first place. Yes, I know I have to keep subscribing to be able to use the products, but I did all the calculations and worked out that was a better deal for me long term than upgrading Lightroom 5 (which I do own) or continuing to struggle with Photoshop Elements.
The difference is that you'll never own the software, OTH, if you pay 12 months or the up front price, you'll own Sonar forever.
Did you actually read my post?
To summarise, you don't own the licence of one of the Adobe CC products because you are never obliged to purchase that licence in the first place. There is, to use my example with Cakewalk SONAR Platinum, no $499 'entry fee' when you first sign up to Adobe.
If a new user to SONAR could immediately start paying $149/$199 per annum, you would have a fair comparison.
Sorry if I misunterstood. Anyway, you're also aren't obliged to pay $499; you can pay $49.99 x 12 months for the platinum version, when this period finishes you own the software and can renew for $199 or 12 x $19.99. Adobe has different subscription prices also for the tools you choose. Of course you already know that.
Desktop Intel I7 12GB RAM Win 10 64bit - Focusrite Scarlett 18i8 2nd gen - Roland A-300 PRO - Yamaha HS50M speakers - Sonar Platinum/CbB - Samplitude Pro X3 - Studio One 4 - Melodyne 4 Studio - Ozone 8 Adv - Neutron 2 Adv - RX7 Adv - ARC2 // Notebook Dell I7 8GB RAM Win 10 64bit
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brconflict
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 13:46:40
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Beepster
brconflict
Beepster
brconflict
I meant to ask earlier, and it certainly helps me decide, but is there a Release Notes doc for the new version(s)? I'd like to see a list of fixes/improvements, and new features. The video is not very revealing. Thanks!
Not exactly release notes but there is this...
https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR&language=3&help=NewFeatures.01.html
No list of bug fixes there. Just the documentation on the new features.
From what I see in the versions, it appears my upgrade path should be from X3 Producer to Sonar Professional. Only, I want the TS64 Transient Shaper. If I could get Professional and the Transient Shaper coming from X3, I might bite. It almost seems the $499 Platinum price is a mis-print. I can't find what the huge value difference is, other than plug-ins.
But I certainly want to see if anything in Take Lanes was addressed. This is still an area I have numerous odd things happening and some gripes I have, but small potatoes to other features/improvements CW is rallying behind.
If Take Lanes were left alone, I'm just fine sticking with X3 for free.
AFAIK you can use all the old tools from your previous versions in Professional and Platinum and aside from the Prochannel stuff (because it does not exist in Artist) you should be able to use everything in Artist as well.
But if you own X3 Pro your upgrade price to Platinum is not $499. It is $149 for the intro period and then it will go up to $199. $499 is for brand new customers.
Yeah, even for $149 from X3, I just didn't see much (other than the dynamic Sends and FX bins, which I love to see) reason to upgrade. Although I personally wasn't impressed by much in this upgrade (just not much that makes what I do any easier, really), there's some features in here many will absolutely love. So, you outsiders reading this, Sonar x3 marked a significant improvement in stability, and it's by far the best I've used since X1. I'm certain the upcoming release will be even better. Sonar has been the most intuitive DAW I've used (well, aside from Garage Band, which doesn't do a whole lot). Anyway, reason behind asking what's been fixed/tweaked to be more reliable or efficient was because many of the new features don't really apply to me. I'm looking for other good reasons to upgrade.
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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Atsuko
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 13:54:13
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I just checked Adobe site and for new clients the subscription is $49,99 per month but after 12 months you don't get the software; for old clients, the price is $29,99 per month.
Desktop Intel I7 12GB RAM Win 10 64bit - Focusrite Scarlett 18i8 2nd gen - Roland A-300 PRO - Yamaha HS50M speakers - Sonar Platinum/CbB - Samplitude Pro X3 - Studio One 4 - Melodyne 4 Studio - Ozone 8 Adv - Neutron 2 Adv - RX7 Adv - ARC2 // Notebook Dell I7 8GB RAM Win 10 64bit
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SteveStrummerUK
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 13:57:54
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Atsuko
I just checked Adobe site and for new clients the subscription is $49,99 per month but after 12 months you don't get the software; for old clients, the price is $29,99 per month.
You're right, my apologies. I only have the 'Photography Plan', I didn't realise the 'Complete' package was discounted for CS upgraders.
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Beepster
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 14:01:18
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dwardzala
I think the intent is that functionality (like drum replacement if I understand it correctly, or vocal sync) that is native to Sonar would be included in latest update that you would get when you re-up.
I think its things like PC modules loops, or presets, etc. that would not be included in the latest update if they were released when you weren't enrolled.
Yeah, I was just using the Drum Replacement thingie as an example. Based on some of the Baker's comments earlier today there will be SOME stuff that will be missed out on during a lapse. What that stuff will be remains to be seen but I was just thinking it would be cool if something was really needed/wanted by a user who missed it they could pick it up in the store... just for much more than they would have if they had a membership (which would essentially be next to free). brconflict
Yeah, even for $149 from X3, I just didn't see much (other than the dynamic Sends and FX bins, which I love to see) reason to upgrade. Although I personally wasn't impressed by much in this upgrade (just not much that makes what I do any easier, really), there's some features in here many will absolutely love. So, you outsiders reading this, Sonar x3 marked a significant improvement in stability, and it's by far the best I've used since X1. I'm certain the upcoming release will be even better. Sonar has been the most intuitive DAW I've used (well, aside from Garage Band, which doesn't do a whole lot).
Anyway, reason behind asking what's been fixed/tweaked to be more reliable or efficient was because many of the new features don't really apply to me. I'm looking for other good reasons to upgrade.
You're not diggin' the MixRecall feature? That seems like a biggie and based on some of the gear experiments and stuff I've seen you do in the past I'd think it would be pretty useful to produce quick comparisons of how gear reacts to certain things. One thing about MixRecall that just blew my mind in another thread is apparently it also has the option to export ALL your mix snapshots in one action. So you could export anything you had in MixRecall's memory, walk away and come back to a bounce of each mix. Pretty cool.
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brconflict
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 14:04:30
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Atsuko
I just checked Adobe site and for new clients the subscription is $49,99 per month but after 12 months you don't get the software; for old clients, the price is $29,99 per month.
I think there's a real difference in the use-case scenarios for PS vs. Sonar, and correct me if I'm wrong. In Nashville, every single seminar, or workshop I go to uses ProTools. I'm not exaggerating. I only run into small shops and home users supporting Sonar, Logic, Cubase, and Studio One, for example. Adobe gets a lot of sales from companies, who use it as the "industry standard". Just at my office alone, we use at least 40-50 copies of PhotoShop. Adobe sells far more copies of PS than AVID sells of PT, and more copies of PS than CW sells of Sonar. I think the market is so different for Adobe, that they can get away with it, because business are able to write off those costs, and it's much easier to expense a subscription vs. amortize large one-time upgrade costs. I'd dare say a very large chunk of Sonar users are home users, or those who run small shops, like me. So, please accept my due respect, but comparing Sonar's Membership to Adobe's subscription just isn't the same to me.
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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Atsuko
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 14:07:03
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SteveStrummerUK
Atsuko
I just checked Adobe site and for new clients the subscription is $49,99 per month but after 12 months you don't get the software; for old clients, the price is $29,99 per month.
You're right, my apologies.
I only have the 'Photography Plan', I didn't realise the 'Complete' package was discounted for CS upgraders.
Cheers!!! 
Desktop Intel I7 12GB RAM Win 10 64bit - Focusrite Scarlett 18i8 2nd gen - Roland A-300 PRO - Yamaha HS50M speakers - Sonar Platinum/CbB - Samplitude Pro X3 - Studio One 4 - Melodyne 4 Studio - Ozone 8 Adv - Neutron 2 Adv - RX7 Adv - ARC2 // Notebook Dell I7 8GB RAM Win 10 64bit
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Beepster
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 14:10:45
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I kind of think part of the point of all this is this is a completely NEW way of approaching things so really any comparisons are, in the end, totally moot. Besides us Sonarites seem to be kind of the odd ducks of the DAW world and software world in general... which is kind of another reason I like Cake (I'm a weirdo... always been a weirdo and always WILL be a weirdo).
The task now is to turn the rest of the world into weirdos.
"One of us! One of us!"
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Anderton
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 14:13:29
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☄ Helpfulby joel77 2015/01/15 22:22:52
Beepster
Also wondering if you have any vids in the works showcasing the Anderton FX features especially the sims. Not quite sure what those are. Just custom FX Chain modules?
A vid is indeed in the works. A lot of the benefits aren't obvious, like these are designed so they "clean up" properly when you turn the volume down on the guitar. All of them also have some kind of special feature - like "Classic" has a tremolo, "Sparkle" has vibrato, "Funk" has a built-in auto-filter, etc. One of the high-gain amps has a "Mojo" control because I couldn't figure out what to call it. Another has an "Animation" control that's pretty interesting. There are some different architectures too, like a bi-amped model. Most of them have "rooms" built-in because I think a large part of an amp's sound isn't obtained by putting a mic 2 inches in front of a speaker, but hearing it in the context of a room. When you move your head even an inch, the response changes. I feel the room is what makes an amp sound "alive" as opposed to just modeling the sound coming off the speaker. The technology has a convenient foundation from FX chains, which saved me a lot of time, but goes beyond that and includes proprietary Gibson IP that I developed while working on sound design for the Gibson FBX guitar. As a result I believe that like physical amps, the innards will not be available for editing although frankly they're not very editable anyway...everything interacts with everything else to an absurd degree. However of course there are the panel controls, and the ability to automate them. I started developing these almost a year ago. As mentioned earlier, if you want to hear what they sound like, they're the only sims I used on the guitar and bass parts in the four most recent songs posted in my YouTube channel. Here are some of the user interfaces. 
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ramscapri
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 14:16:44
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Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
Beepster
Greeny
This stinks. I shall be voting with my wallet, hello steinberg.
What stinks? The "membership" pricing? You can just pay for a full upgrade which seems to be the same prices they were for the X3 upgrade and you get a full license. It's the exact same thing. The subscription thing is for those who just want to pay less on a monthly basis.
If they had forced everyone to a subscription model I'd say the same thing but that is not what is happening.
Yeah exactly, and after 12 months of paying month to month, you get to keep everything you received, no strings attached. As mentioned before, it's very customer-friendly.
Agreed Andrew, but I do have a few questions here, some related to the purchase models and some technical. Firstly, let me say that I love Sonar. I started with 4LE when I knew practically nothing about music sequencing and audio production, then to 6LE, X1LE, purchased X1 Producer and now own X3e Producer. Sonar has brought me a long way ahead in realizing my dreams to compose and produce music and I commend Cakewalk for the great progress made in developing Sonar. The new model seems to look good in many ways. But I do need to ask the following (Willy, Andrew, others, please help to clarify) : 1. If I do go for the upfront upgrade to Platinum for $149 which is a full purchase, why do I then have to pay an annual fee again after one year and then year after year ?! I don't see how this is any different from the subscription option. Why do I keep paying major upgrade prices for possibly smaller feature updates at times ? 2. I do see the advantage of getting updates as and when ready, but how do I know when updates / upgrades are coming ? What if there are no updates / upgrades for one year from my upfront purchase ? Then I pay again at the end of one year for what ? Does Cakewalk have a sure-shot plan for releasing updates / upgrades / new features during the course of one year and then year after year ? Will the customers get to know the forecast and the specifics ? 3. Lets say even if there are no major updates / upgrades but only bug fixes and enhancements to the executable. Does it mean we would now pay for software bug fixes which were always supposed to be free in the first place ? I ask this because I read that the periodic payment would be necessary even to get bug fixes which are essentially corrections to software errors / inadequacies ! Now this beats me... 4. Why does the renewal price show as $199 for the next year ? Some tech questions... 1. Is Sonar Platinum an update option to X3 Producer, meaning a small update download and install ? Or is it a completely new executable which will require me to download few GBs ? Is there a DVDs box option ? 2. In case its a new executable, can we assume this will be once and for all, meaning all feature additions and upgrades / updates in the future will be patches and small downloads ? OR will there continue to be full executable upgrades of 4 to 5 GB files to be downloaded again or boxes purchased ? 3. Will new feature updates be of modular type, that is, I could choose and download what I wish, which in turn means they will not be of cumulative nature ? Or will they be sequential and conditional, meaning, I get an update only if I have a previous one ? 4. I would assume bug fixes and basic enhancements to be cumulative though, as they used to be previously, that is, like X3e would include everything from X3a to X3d as well. True ? 5. How will the bug fix patch updates and builds be named and tracked (like previously they used to be X3a, X3b......X3e with a build number) ? Regards...
************************************************************Sonar Platinum ∞, HP Envy Core i7-4700 Quadcore touchscreen laptop, 16 GB RAM, Windows 10 64-bit, Roland Octacapture, Zoom H6, Akai MPK Mini mk2, Novation Launchpad Mini mk2, NI Komplete 11, KRK KNS-8400, AKG P120
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brconflict
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 14:18:53
(permalink)
Beepster
dwardzala
I think the intent is that functionality (like drum replacement if I understand it correctly, or vocal sync) that is native to Sonar would be included in latest update that you would get when you re-up.
I think its things like PC modules loops, or presets, etc. that would not be included in the latest update if they were released when you weren't enrolled.
Yeah, I was just using the Drum Replacement thingie as an example. Based on some of the Baker's comments earlier today there will be SOME stuff that will be missed out on during a lapse. What that stuff will be remains to be seen but I was just thinking it would be cool if something was really needed/wanted by a user who missed it they could pick it up in the store... just for much more than they would have if they had a membership (which would essentially be next to free).
brconflict
Yeah, even for $149 from X3, I just didn't see much (other than the dynamic Sends and FX bins, which I love to see) reason to upgrade. Although I personally wasn't impressed by much in this upgrade (just not much that makes what I do any easier, really), there's some features in here many will absolutely love. So, you outsiders reading this, Sonar x3 marked a significant improvement in stability, and it's by far the best I've used since X1. I'm certain the upcoming release will be even better. Sonar has been the most intuitive DAW I've used (well, aside from Garage Band, which doesn't do a whole lot).
Anyway, reason behind asking what's been fixed/tweaked to be more reliable or efficient was because many of the new features don't really apply to me. I'm looking for other good reasons to upgrade.
You're not diggin' the MixRecall feature? That seems like a biggie and based on some of the gear experiments and stuff I've seen you do in the past I'd think it would be pretty useful to produce quick comparisons of how gear reacts to certain things.
One thing about MixRecall that just blew my mind in another thread is apparently it also has the option to export ALL your mix snapshots in one action. So you could export anything you had in MixRecall's memory, walk away and come back to a bounce of each mix. Pretty cool.
The Mix Recall has some benefits, mainly an A->B comparison from day to day, but I have a need to import those Recalls into other Projects. Interesting question, though, are the Mix Recalls stored in the .cwp Project file in a way I can copy/paste the data from one .cwp file to another? I could probably shell script that.
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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Atsuko
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 14:22:15
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brconflict
Atsuko
I just checked Adobe site and for new clients the subscription is $49,99 per month but after 12 months you don't get the software; for old clients, the price is $29,99 per month.
I think there's a real difference in the use-case scenarios for PS vs. Sonar, and correct me if I'm wrong. In Nashville, every single seminar, or workshop I go to uses ProTools. I'm not exaggerating. I only run into small shops and home users supporting Sonar, Logic, Cubase, and Studio One, for example. Adobe gets a lot of sales from companies, who use it as the "industry standard". Just at my office alone, we use at least 40-50 copies of PhotoShop.
Adobe sells far more copies of PS than AVID sells of PT, and more copies of PS than CW sells of Sonar. I think the market is so different for Adobe, that they can get away with it, because business are able to write off those costs, and it's much easier to expense a subscription vs. amortize large one-time upgrade costs.
I'd dare say a very large chunk of Sonar users are home users, or those who run small shops, like me.
So, please accept my due respect, but comparing Sonar's Membership to Adobe's subscription just isn't the same to me.
I think you're right. I just don't agree that we can't compare the subscriptions, it's just a way to charge for a product... Maybe, Adobe could charge less since they own their market...
Desktop Intel I7 12GB RAM Win 10 64bit - Focusrite Scarlett 18i8 2nd gen - Roland A-300 PRO - Yamaha HS50M speakers - Sonar Platinum/CbB - Samplitude Pro X3 - Studio One 4 - Melodyne 4 Studio - Ozone 8 Adv - Neutron 2 Adv - RX7 Adv - ARC2 // Notebook Dell I7 8GB RAM Win 10 64bit
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Anderton
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 14:26:20
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brconflict
I think the market is so different for Adobe, that they can get away with it, because business are able to write off those costs, and it's much easier to expense a subscription vs. amortize large one-time upgrade costs.
The Adobe plan is actually great for a company like Gibson. Everyone's on the same software, whether they're in Mumbai or Nashville. But you've hit the nail on the head. As I've said before, I don't think anyone had come up with a model tailored toward individual users. I think Cakewalk has addressed that well.
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berlymahn
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 14:26:21
(permalink)
Love my Sonar X3 Producer and consider myself a loyal Cakewalk user and advocate, but am going to let this one sail without me.
I simply have everything I will ever need: a great DAW, cool synths (from CW and others), effects, etc. Stunning capability so far and tons of music to be written!
Would probably buy in for the amusement of it, but I simply have too many ass kicking bills. Boo hoo, I know.
Wondering if CW will continue to offer effects, presets, instruments etc. to the occasional [independent] buyer, or is this an exclusive in or out club thing?
Cheers,
Jim
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Beepster
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 14:28:21
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@Craig...
Sweet! So essentially FX Chains using goodies we don't really have access to on speed lovingly cooked up in your own personal RV in the desert (wearing tighty whiteys as is the custom I assume).
Which brings me to yet another question, which of course you can feel free to ignore because it's woefully off topic and I'm being annoying... since you created these using the FX Chains as the shells is there potentially going to be a legit way for users to do the same? Like some of the other platforms that allow users to not just create a mish mash of plugs but create actual hack VST's like you've done here? I'm just scratching the surface of these topics in my "research" but I could definitely see myself wanting to try something like this and the FX Chain module looks like a very nice shell to work with. I'd of course just be doing it for fun and educational purposes but who knows... maybe I'd come up with something cool enough that people would want.
And again gonna be annoying but seriously curious about the Vocal Align on doubled guits. Totally ignore me because I'll find out as time passes but I figure you've played with this stuff.
Thanks for showing us a sneak peak at your creations and I look forward to the vids. Cheers.
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Atsuko
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 14:30:27
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Anderton
brconflict
I think the market is so different for Adobe, that they can get away with it, because business are able to write off those costs, and it's much easier to expense a subscription vs. amortize large one-time upgrade costs.
The Adobe plan is actually great for a company like Gibson. Everyone's on the same software, whether they're in Mumbai or Nashville. But you've hit the nail on the head. As I've said before, I don't think anyone had come up with a model tailored toward individual users. I think Cakewalk has addressed that well.
I totally agree!! Thumbs up for Cakewalk!
Desktop Intel I7 12GB RAM Win 10 64bit - Focusrite Scarlett 18i8 2nd gen - Roland A-300 PRO - Yamaha HS50M speakers - Sonar Platinum/CbB - Samplitude Pro X3 - Studio One 4 - Melodyne 4 Studio - Ozone 8 Adv - Neutron 2 Adv - RX7 Adv - ARC2 // Notebook Dell I7 8GB RAM Win 10 64bit
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Beepster
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 14:34:30
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brconflict
The Mix Recall has some benefits, mainly an A->B comparison from day to day, but I have a need to import those Recalls into other Projects. Interesting question, though, are the Mix Recalls stored in the .cwp Project file in a way I can copy/paste the data from one .cwp file to another? I could probably shell script that.
I wasn't really following what they were discussing but I think it may indeed do that based on this thread... http://forum.cakewalk.com/Load-Time-for-Mix-Recall-m3145183.aspx#3146857 I may have been misinterpreting that but there has also been Baker talk about how this is just the start for MixRecall. It sounds like it is going to end up being expanded massively to do all sorts of crazy useful stuff.
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cparmerlee
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 14:41:33
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Beepster
Not exactly release notes but there is this...
https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR&language=3&help=NewFeatures.01.html
No list of bug fixes there. Just the documentation on the new features.
Thank you for that reference. In my particular case, I found things on that list that I'm sure I would use a lot more than some of the items Cakewalk featured. I probably use the product differently from most, but everybody ought to spend a few minutes on that list. Some good stuff there. I love the improvements in scaling MIDI velocities.
DAW: SONAR Platinum Audio I/F: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 gen2
OS: Windows 10 64-bit CPU: Haswell 4790 4.0 GHz, 4 core, 8 thread Memory: 16 GB Video: GTX-760Ti
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CJaysMusic
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 14:41:56
(permalink)
Greeny
This stinks. I shall be voting with my wallet, hello steinberg.
You never used the program, so how do you know it stinks? Oh, I get it! I do t allot when I fart, I blame it on others near me. CJ
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Anderton
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 14:44:33
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Beepster
@Craig...
Sweet! So essentially FX Chains using goodies we don't really have access to on speed lovingly cooked up in your own personal RV in the desert (wearing tighty whiteys as is the custom I assume). You got it, except I relocated to Nashville so I'm not in New Mexico any more. Which brings me to yet another question, which of course you can feel free to ignore because it's woefully off topic and I'm being annoying... since you created these using the FX Chains as the shells is there potentially going to be a legit way for users to do the same? I don't really know. My relationship to Cakewalk is like a user, but a super-annoying one because they have to pick up the phone when I call I've made suggestions about FX chains, and I think they heard me before I was escorted out of the building by security. Your suggestion is one to add to the list. And again gonna be annoying but seriously curious about the Vocal Align on doubled guits. Totally ignore me because I'll find out as time passes but I figure you've played with this stuff. I actually didn't think to try different VocalSync abuse techniques until recently so I don't have any significant data yet. But when I do, it will result in an article. Or if nothing works, a sentence.
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Beepster
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 14:46:48
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ramscapri
Agreed Andrew, but I do have a few questions here, some related to the purchase models and some technical.
Firstly, let me say that I love Sonar. I started with 4LE when I knew practically nothing about music sequencing and audio production, then to 6LE, X1LE, purchased X1 Producer and now own X3e Producer. Sonar has brought me a long way ahead in realizing my dreams to compose and produce music and I commend Cakewalk for the great progress made in developing Sonar. The new model seems to look good in many ways. But I do need to ask the following (Willy, Andrew, others, please help to clarify) :
1. If I do go for the upfront upgrade to Platinum for $149 which is a full purchase, why do I then have to pay an annual fee again after one year and then year after year ?! I don't see how this is any different from the subscription option. Why do I keep paying major upgrade prices for possibly smaller feature updates at times ?
2. I do see the advantage of getting updates as and when ready, but how do I know when updates / upgrades are coming ? What if there are no updates / upgrades for one year from my upfront purchase ? Then I pay again at the end of one year for what ? Does Cakewalk have a sure-shot plan for releasing updates / upgrades / new features during the course of one year and then year after year ? Will the customers get to know the forecast and the specifics ?
3. Lets say even if there are no major updates / upgrades but only bug fixes and enhancements to the executable. Does it mean we would now pay for software bug fixes which were always supposed to be free in the first place ? I ask this because I read that the periodic payment would be necessary even to get bug fixes which are essentially corrections to software errors / inadequacies ! Now this beats me...
4. Why does the renewal price show as $199 for the next year ?
Some tech questions...
1. Is Sonar Platinum an update option to X3 Producer, meaning a small update download and install ? Or is it a completely new executable which will require me to download few GBs ? Is there a DVDs box option ?
2. In case its a new executable, can we assume this will be once and for all, meaning all feature additions and upgrades / updates in the future will be patches and small downloads ? OR will there continue to be full executable upgrades of 4 to 5 GB files to be downloaded again or boxes purchased ?
3. Will new feature updates be of modular type, that is, I could choose and download what I wish, which in turn means they will not be of cumulative nature ? Or will they be sequential and conditional, meaning, I get an update only if I have a previous one ?
4. I would assume bug fixes and basic enhancements to be cumulative though, as they used to be previously, that is, like X3e would include everything from X3a to X3d as well. True ?
5. How will the bug fix patch updates and builds be named and tracked (like previously they used to be X3a, X3b......X3e with a build number) ?
Regards...
1. By paying again after 12 months is basically just like buying an old version upgrade like say X2 to X3. If you decide not to do it you still get to use what you already bought just like before. 2. They have a page showing upcoming features but do you really think Cakewalk is just going to not release any new stuff for a whle year? They would crash their business immediately if they did that. It is somewhat trust based but if they don't provide content people will just say screw it and bail so they'll have to haul butt even more than they used to. 3. That is a moot point because they aren't going to simply not release content. As far as bugs all software will have SOME bugs but X3, which is the backbone of this model, is about as solid as you can get. Anything new they add can be repaired more easily because we, the users, will be getting it sooner instead of all in one massive chunk causing a scramble to fix ten things instead of one or two. 4. Because the $149 upgrade is only an introductory offer. That will expire at some point that has not been clearly defined yet but I've seen February as a potential cut off date. Then it will be $199 for the foreseeable future. I can't/don't really want to attempt to answer you tech questions. You should take a look around the site and this thread. Many things have been answered over... and over... and over again. It is however confusing at first glance so I get it... you just wnat to know.
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Beepster
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/15 14:49:39
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CJaysMusic
Greeny
This stinks. I shall be voting with my wallet, hello steinberg.
You never used the program, so how do you know it stinks? Oh, I get it! I do t allot when I fart, I blame it on others near me.
CJ
Greeny actually plans to upgrade. He was just misinterpreting what was happening. If you scroll thorugh the admittedly MASSIVE thread you'll see that. Now if Dave_lol were still around then you'd have someone to rip on but he seems to have been banninated. ;-)
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