cparmerlee

Beepster
Not exactly release notes but there is this...
https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR&language=3&help=NewFeatures.01.html
No list of bug fixes there. Just the documentation on the new features.

Thank you for that reference.  In my particular case, I found things on that list that I'm sure I would use a lot more than some of the items Cakewalk featured.  I probably use the product differently from most, but everybody ought to spend a few minutes on that list.  Some good stuff there.  I love the improvements in scaling MIDI velocities.

+1 on posting that list! I didn't realize recursive media browser search was a new feature. I'll be using that a lot.

hey
some nice music
great sound

Beepster
Thank, scook. He posted it in my New Features list thread from yesterday... he did however steal it from a post one of the Baker's made. Still, gotta organize the chaos.
 
And if anyone's interested I'll post it again...
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Full-list-of-all-new-features-w-videosdescriptions-of-each-in-one-post-m3145468.aspx
 
I made a list of all the new features I could find, copied and pasted their descriptions, linked any vids for the features and gave a brief impression/description of my own based on the vids.
 

I will add there are now product listings in the support pages like this one https://www.cakewalk.com/Support/By-Product/SONAR%20Platinum for Platinum with knowledge base articles about installation, authorization and system requirements.

Beepster

ramscapri
 
 
Agreed Andrew, but I do have a few questions here, some related to the purchase models and some technical.
Firstly, let me say that I love Sonar. I started with 4LE when I knew practically nothing about music sequencing and audio production, then to 6LE, X1LE, purchased X1 Producer and now own X3e Producer. Sonar has brought me a long way ahead in realizing my dreams to compose and produce music and I commend Cakewalk for the great progress made in developing Sonar. The new model seems to look good in many ways. But I do need to ask the following (Willy, Andrew, others, please help to clarify) :
 
1. If I do go for the upfront upgrade to Platinum for $149 which is a full purchase, why do I then have to pay an annual fee again after one year and then year after year ?! I don't see how this is any different from the subscription option. Why do I keep paying major upgrade prices for possibly smaller feature updates at times ?
 
 
2. I do see the advantage of getting updates as and when ready, but how do I know when updates / upgrades are coming ? What if there are no updates / upgrades for one year from my upfront purchase ? Then I pay again at the end of one year for what ? Does Cakewalk have a sure-shot plan for releasing updates / upgrades / new features during the course of one year and then year after year ? Will the customers get to know the forecast and the specifics ?
 
3. Lets say even if there are no major updates / upgrades but only bug fixes and enhancements to the executable. Does it mean we would now pay for software bug fixes which were always supposed to be free in the first place ? I ask this because I read that the periodic payment would be necessary even to get bug fixes which are essentially corrections to software errors / inadequacies ! Now this beats me...
 
4. Why does the renewal price show as $199 for the next year ?
 
Some tech questions...
 
1. Is Sonar Platinum an update option to X3 Producer, meaning a small update download and install ? Or is it a completely new executable which will require me to download few GBs ? Is there a DVDs box option ?
 
2. In case its a new executable, can we assume this will be once and for all, meaning all feature additions and upgrades / updates in the future will be patches and small downloads ? OR will there continue to be full executable upgrades of 4 to 5 GB files to be downloaded again or boxes purchased ?
 
3. Will new feature updates be of modular type, that is, I could choose and download what I wish, which in turn means they will not be of cumulative nature ? Or will they be sequential and conditional, meaning, I get an update only if I have a previous one ?
 
4. I would assume bug fixes and basic enhancements to be cumulative though, as they used to be previously, that is, like X3e would include everything from X3a to X3d as well. True ?
 
5. How will the bug fix patch updates and builds be named and tracked (like previously they used to be X3a, X3b......X3e with a build number) ?
 
Regards...

1. By paying again after 12 months is basically just like buying an old version upgrade like say X2 to X3. If you decide not to do it you still get to use what you already bought just like before.
 
2. They have a page showing upcoming features but do you really think Cakewalk is just going to not release any new stuff for a whle year? They would crash their business immediately if they did that. It is somewhat trust based but if they don't provide content people will just say screw it and bail so they'll have to haul butt even more than they used to.
 
3. That is a moot point because they aren't going to simply not release content. As far as bugs all software will have SOME bugs but X3, which is the backbone of this model, is about as solid as you can get. Anything new they add can be repaired more easily because we, the users, will be getting it sooner instead of all in one massive chunk causing a scramble to fix ten things instead of one or two.
 
4. Because the $149 upgrade is only an introductory offer. That will expire at some point that has not been clearly defined yet but I've seen February as a potential cut off date. Then it will be $199 for the foreseeable future.
 
I can't/don't really want to attempt to answer you tech questions. You should take a look around the site and this thread. Many things have been answered over... and over... and over again. It is however confusing at first glance so I get it... you just wnat to know.

 
Thanks Beepster. Appreciate your answers. But just on point no. 1, I get what you say that it will be like going from X2 to X3, but its just that this time we don't know when that will come. Previously we would upgrade from X2 to X3 when X3 actually comes out, but what happens now ? Different customers may have different annual cycles...how does one decide whether putting the money will be worth it ?
So then, it all boils down to the trust factor as you say. CW definitely has that from me today. The next one year will be a real test though...
 
Will try to search other similar posts for info. But I do hope Noel / Willy / Andrew can chip in with responses to my tech queries. They are so important because I just cant get my head around how all this is going to technically shape up and what to expect.
 
Cheers...

berlymahn
Love my Sonar X3 Producer and consider myself a loyal Cakewalk user and advocate, but am going to let this one sail without me.
 
I simply have everything I will ever need: a great DAW, cool synths (from CW and others), effects, etc.  Stunning capability so far and tons of music to be written!
 
Would probably buy in for the amusement of it, but I simply have too many ass kicking bills.  Boo hoo, I know. 
 
Wondering if CW will continue to offer effects, presets, instruments etc. to the occasional [independent] buyer, or is this an exclusive in or out club thing?
 
Cheers,
Jim
 

I kinda have to agree with you there on the first part, berlymahn. The DAW is just a fancy new pen, and it seems that by buying into it at the upgrade price I am surrendering my licence to the subscription model and to terms that are subject to change as well- that can actually be a very dear cost down the road. Sorry CW, but Im a little too wary (or paranoid, if you prefer) to buy into this scheme. 

ramscapri
 
 
Thanks Beepster. Appreciate your answers. But just on point no. 1, I get what you say that it will be like going from X2 to X3, but its just that this time we don't know when that will come. Previously we would upgrade from X2 to X3 when X3 actually comes out, but what happens now ? Different customers may have different annual cycles...how does one decide whether putting the money will be worth it ?
So then, it all boils down to the trust factor as you say. CW definitely has that from me today. The next one year will be a real test though...
 
Will try to search other similar posts for info. But I do hope Noel / Willy / Andrew can chip in with responses to my tech queries. They are so important because I just cant get my head around how all this is going to technically shape up and what to expect.
 
Cheers...

Yup... only time will tell what the future holds. As of this moment it's a wicked deal no matter what. What happens next year... well that's up to the Baker's to provide content to keep the users hooked. Really, as has been said, this puts far more pressure on them to produce quality content. They seem up to the task. I think up until abotu a year ago they were chasing their tails with bug fixes and had to deal with some screwy head office nonsense (Roland... ugh). Now they seem to be reinvigorated, up to the task and their hands have been unbound by their new overlords Gibson... who seem to be really benevolent overlords thus far.
 
but yeah... time will tell.

jgarland
Has Dimension Pro (in Platinum) been updated? Will my previous version work with the "Professional" upgrade?

Dimension Pro has not been updated. SONAR Professional would be a separate install but all your plugins and ProChannel modules would work.

Craig, any chance these loop collections could also include individual note samples? Loops without those are far more limited in their use, as one can only get so far slicing and pitching things.

Also, I would hope that as little membership content as possible be restricted to Sonar. At this point, I doubt Sonar will be my primary DAW again, but the content and AD2 seem to be a very enticing value to keep upgrading even without becoming a Sonar user.

I don't like the direction companies are going. Adobe started this crap and now Avid is following and now Cakewalk.
I understand you need a sustainable business model, but having a confusing subscription model with convoluted rules on what you get to keep, with a mandatory year minimum, or get downgraded; is not really the way to go. People recognize when they're being shafted and when companies begin to exploit them. Not saying you are. Everyone has been friendly here for my short time here, but I feel this new model leaves the door open for the company to become exploitative.
 
Why do I feel this way? Because Adobe has this model now and has left the door wide open for their competitors if someone decides to step up to the plate. (Which if you look, a lot of their customers hate it and don't like them for it)
 
What can go wrong with this:
I pay for a year or whatever terms of subscription and barely any updates at all come out.
I pay and it could backfire and a constant stream of updates, untested or unfinished, could break things for me.
Cakewalk could withhold updates in the hopes of getting people to buy another subscription.
Cakewalk could change their model or terms and force people into a constant subscription or deactivate their software. (Meaning they wouldn't have to innovate and earn your money, just keep you locked into subscription)
 
Honestly, I see this as a slippery slope and I don't like it. There's a line that has to be drawn and I feel companies will keep stepping over it if people allow them to. No matter how you phrase it, subscription models for software are generally always bad for consumers and consumer rights. (being that companies usually can revoke and disable products you've already paid for, even on the basis they disagree with how you're using it.)
 
With all that said, I'm just going to watch how this all pans out and stick to Sonar X3. I had a hard time wrapping my head around the plans with all the confusing rules. I feel theres gotchas in there (mandatory year) with the way its worded.
 
Will be watching intently.

yevster
Craig, any chance these loop collections could also include individual note samples? Loops without those are far more limited in their use, as one can only get so far slicing and pitching things.

 
GREAT point. Thanks!

Also, I would hope that as little membership content as possible be restricted to Sonar.

 
Of course, some is unavoidable, like new ProChannel presets but I am hoping that a lot of the content will be offered for sale to non-members and people using other DAWs. Of course the Members come out ahead, but if for example Ableton users want the loops, why not sell the loops to them?
 

At this point, I doubt Sonar will be my primary DAW again, but the content and AD2 seem to be a very enticing value to keep upgrading even without becoming a Sonar user.

BTW, just following up to a previous post...are you on X3e?

dwardzala
 
I think you are looking at this very cynically.  If you want to, you can consider this a paid update (X4?) for $149 (assuming you own X3 producer and want to go to Platinum).  You now have the (license) software forever.  You can choose to take advantage of the updates or content you are entitled to over the next 12 months (think Content Club) and not spend another dime and keep all that stuff.
 
The monthly payment is really just a payment plan option with a high interest rate that might be right for people in certain circumstances.
 
Not really seeing how this is comparable to Adobe at all.

You can rationalize being put at a disadvantage any way you want, but bottom line is it's the truth and not benefiting you compared to the old model.

DragonBlood
What can go wrong with this:
I pay for a year or whatever terms of subscription and barely any updates at all come out.
I pay and it could backfire and a constant stream of updates, untested or unfinished, could break things for me.
Cakewalk could withhold updates in the hopes of getting people to buy another subscription.
Cakewalk could change their model or terms and force people into a constant subscription or deactivate their software. (Meaning they wouldn't have to innovate and earn your money, just keep you locked into subscription)

 
I don't know why some people have this idea that Cakewalk is hoping to fail. If barely any updates come out, the company will fail. If they force people into a constant subscription or deactivate your software, they will fail. If these gloom-and-doom worst-case scenarios come to pass, Cakewalk will fail.
 
Cakewalk does not want to fail. This plan would never have been launched without a reasonable expectation that it will earn Cakewalk more customers and more repeat customers. Remember, this is the company that doesn't use dongles...
 
If only I had a dollar for every post that said Cakewalk would fail within months after Gibson acquiring it, I could have a nice little vacation. 
 

I had a hard time wrapping my head around the plans with all the confusing rules. I feel theres gotchas in there (mandatory year) with the way its worded.

The rules are simple.
 
New user: Buy the software upfront, and get an immediate and permanent license for whatever you bought and everything you receive for the next year. After the year is up, upgrade if you want to.
 
Existing user: Buy the 1 year membership upfront, and get an immediate and permanent license for everything you receive for the next year. After the year is up, upgrade if you want to.
 
- or -
 
Do one of the above, but make monthly payments. The only difference is you don't get the permanent license until you've actually paid for the software, which takes 12 months.

Well, 29 pages, and most of the conversation revolves around pricing, features, and content. Obviously important issues, but those reasons won’t drive my decision to continue with Sonar. My four fundamental reasons for buying DAW software are sound, stability, accuracy, and efficiency.
 
Sound is self-explanatory, and works hand in hand with accuracy.
 
Stability means I don’t want the operation of core functions/features in the software to cause it to crash on my computer. It means when I use the core functions/features in the software, they all work as they should. It means when I am editing or changing something while the software is streaming back my audio/MIDI tracks, I won’t hear/see hiccups, gaps, pauses, or any other interruption in the audio/MIDI stream. It means when I insert a plugin that was shipped with the software, that plugin will behave as it should. Period. Without causing ANY problems. It means that if the software supports an industry stand like VST, it damn well better work extremely well with a lot of VST effects and VST instruments NOT included with the core product.
 
Accuracy means when I record or playback audio and MIDI tracks, they always stay in perfect sync, no matter what. It means when I save settings in a project, and then recall them at a later date, the settings will not have changed upon recall, and, if left untouched, won’t change because of some other action. It means what is recorded into the software – audio or MIDI - is exactly what comes out (this obviously works in conjunction with sound).
 
Efficiency means the core product’s UI allows one to quickly accomplish fundamental tasks. How quick and easy is it to record, erase, and overdub audio and MIDI tracks? Once recorded, how quick and easy is it to edit those tracks?
 
These four items mean so much more to me than anything else. I would pay $1,000.00 for DAW software with NO CONTENT if a developer could assure me that those four items were successfully addressed.
 
Having said all that, I fully understand that the software development paradigm today is “give the customer a bunch of ’stuff’ along with the core product, even though the core product is buggy. Everyone knows ALL software is buggy upon release. They expect us to ‘fix it later’. Well, maybe we will, and maybe we won’t”. It’s a paradigm that sucks, but we seem to be stuck with it. So, with regard to the X3e Producer-to-the “new” Sonar upgrade -
 
I still have not seen answers to these critical questions (from Cakewalk) regarding the new Sonar.
 

1. What improvements to the CORE PRODUCT have been made since X3e, especially regarding the four elements I listed above?
2. How will bug fixes for that core product be handled in the future? I believe someone mentioned a scenario where a bug was introduced into the purchased software during an update, and the user’s subscription lapsed before that bug was fixed. Since that user purchased the buggy software, is he/she entitled to the fix? I would think any answer other than yes is suspect.

 
At the very least, these questions need to be answered immediately. Transparency is everything. One of the best examples I have ever seen of software developer transparency was the “Whatsinaname” paper written by Noel Borthwick. Yeah, the Cakewalk guy. Go to “The Cakewalk Blog”, and read it. That paper is the reason I still use Sonar, admittedly still 8.5.3. That paper was a beautiful treatise on what went into improving Sonar at version 8.5. I’ve not seen anything like it before or since. Noel, if you are still around, you need to step in and do the same thing for Sonar Artist, Professional, and Platinum.
 
If you are not still around, maybe I understand why?

DragonBlood

dwardzala
 
I think you are looking at this very cynically.  If you want to, you can consider this a paid update (X4?) for $149 (assuming you own X3 producer and want to go to Platinum).  You now have the (license) software forever.  You can choose to take advantage of the updates or content you are entitled to over the next 12 months (think Content Club) and not spend another dime and keep all that stuff.
 
The monthly payment is really just a payment plan option with a high interest rate that might be right for people in certain circumstances.
 
Not really seeing how this is comparable to Adobe at all.

You can rationalize being put at a disadvantage any way you want, but bottom line is it's the truth and not benefiting you compared to the old model.

Complete and utter nonsense. Many users who understand how the new model is going to work are plenty pleased with it and in a lot of ways it puts CAKEWALK at the disadvantage compared to the old model. They now absolutely HAVE to perform and on a regular basis or the whole thing will collapse very quickly.
 
This is nothing like the Adobe model unless you go out of your way to MAKE it like the Adobe model. That would be by only subscribing one month at a time and letting it lapse before 12 months is up.
 
And you know what? Adobe seems to be doing just fine using that model anyway... but again this is NOT the Adobe model. If it were I personally would not be staying with Sonar... but it's not... and this new system is complex but at this very moment it heavily favors the customer... HEAVILY.