Anderton
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/07/15 22:44:59
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☄ Helpfulby charlyg 2015/07/15 22:56:45
Brett
jonogrant
Thanks for the reply! I didn't say it was unusable,
I will. For me at least.
There is (was?) a bug with lyrics that will destroy your track by adding duplicate notes and lyrics and it's not undoable.
Craig, you'll forgive me if I'm a little cynical. This bug was introduced in Sonar 5 ten years ago. I, and others documented it thoroughly.
Brett
All I ask is that people (not you specifically) look at what's happened in the last 19 months since Cakewalk was acquired (which includes a fix for the bug you mentioned), stop stating as fact speculation about the future based on a past model of operation that no longer exists, and stop dissing current Cakewalk employees for problems wrought by a different regime - because the current Cakewalk employees are working very hard on SONAR fixes. I think the fix lists from X3 to SONAR 2015, and the fix lists in the first five monthly releases, speak for themselves and progress will continue every month from here on out unless Cakewalk stops making software, the sun goes nova, or there's contact with an alien super-race of DAW programmers. Then we'll just hire them and get all the fixes done in a week. 
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interpolated
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/07/21 15:07:06
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jsg
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/07/22 12:19:20
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☄ Helpfulby morganfm71 2015/09/02 01:04:31
As I mentioned in the other notation thread, a few weeks ago I got an email from Cakewalk asking me to send them images of how dotted, tied and nested triplets look in Sibelius. I honored the request (obviously!) so let's hope that the developers are going to finally fix these long-standing issues. I also sent them a file showing the proper place for a dot next to a note--it should never been on a staff line, but always slightly above it. Perhaps this too will be repaired. Jerry http://www.jerrygerber.com
post edited by jsg - 2015/07/22 12:26:08
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mudgel
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/07/23 13:53:20
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Thanks jerry. I hope your persistence and determination pays off. Personally I think it will.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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annifarkle
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/07/23 17:14:47
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Anderton
And FWIW, the last time this was brought I'm pretty sure someone from Cakewalk said it was not a priority for the next update.
If not next time, WHEN!????
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annifarkle
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/07/23 17:25:33
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jsg
As I mentioned in the other notation thread, a few weeks ago I got an email from Cakewalk asking me to send them images of how dotted, tied and nested triplets look in Sibelius. I honored the request (obviously!) so let's hope that the developers are going to finally fix these long-standing issues.
I also sent them a file showing the proper place for a dot next to a note--it should never been on a staff line, but always slightly above it. Perhaps this too will be repaired.
Jerry
http://www.jerrygerber.com
1. How about when you right click the c note on the treble staff or the e note on the bass staff and the note properties window doesn't pop up? Instead you get the process menu. 2. How about when you try to copy and paste something it pastes it a measure or further back from where you're telling it you want it? 3. How about when you're trying to add 32nd notes one after the other and they pop forward to align with the preceding note, so you have to keep moving them back to the right position. 4. How about being able to write a second or third verse below the 1st line of lyrics? These are just a few off the top of my head.
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Brando
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/07/24 13:07:13
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annifarkle
jsg
As I mentioned in the other notation thread, a few weeks ago I got an email from Cakewalk asking me to send them images of how dotted, tied and nested triplets look in Sibelius. I honored the request (obviously!) so let's hope that the developers are going to finally fix these long-standing issues.
I also sent them a file showing the proper place for a dot next to a note--it should never been on a staff line, but always slightly above it. Perhaps this too will be repaired.
Jerry
http://www.jerrygerber.com
1. How about when you right click the c note on the treble staff or the e note on the bass staff and the note properties window doesn't pop up? Instead you get the process menu.
2. How about when you try to copy and paste something it pastes it a measure or further back from where you're telling it you want it?
3. How about when you're trying to add 32nd notes one after the other and they pop forward to align with the preceding note, so you have to keep moving them back to the right position.
4. How about being able to write a second or third verse below the 1st line of lyrics?
These are just a few off the top of my head.
Hi Ann - I completely agree. But it seems that Cakewalk prefer that individual Feature Requests or Problem Reports be issued for each "issue" or aspect. In your list above, I see 1-3 as being Bugs and 4 as a "feature request". If you submit them I'll definitely support them as no doubt will others anxious to see the staff view get some fixes. I am sure Cake will get to them right after they release Bass Replacer/Recall Mach 2 (TM).
Brando
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jsg
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/07/24 13:23:58
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annifarkle
jsg
As I mentioned in the other notation thread, a few weeks ago I got an email from Cakewalk asking me to send them images of how dotted, tied and nested triplets look in Sibelius. I honored the request (obviously!) so let's hope that the developers are going to finally fix these long-standing issues.
I also sent them a file showing the proper place for a dot next to a note--it should never been on a staff line, but always slightly above it. Perhaps this too will be repaired.
Jerry
http://www.jerrygerber.com
1. How about when you right click the c note on the treble staff or the e note on the bass staff and the note properties window doesn't pop up? Instead you get the process menu.
2. How about when you try to copy and paste something it pastes it a measure or further back from where you're telling it you want it?
3. How about when you're trying to add 32nd notes one after the other and they pop forward to align with the preceding note, so you have to keep moving them back to the right position.
4. How about being able to write a second or third verse below the 1st line of lyrics?
These are just a few off the top of my head.
1. If you click just to the left or right of the note when the note is on a lower ledger line you can get to the properties. If that doesn't work you can always use event inspector. Or, if you drag the note whose properties you need down a few ledger lines and drag it back that seems to work too. 2. I haven't seen that issue. Are you using Sonar Platinum? 3. I have no issue with 32nds notes. Did you check your note resolution display in the staff view and make sure it's on the highest resolution? 4. I don't use Sonar for lyrics, can't help there. JG http://www.jerrygerber.com
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ronboy1952
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/08/27 01:44:45
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Well, nothing has been from Roland for awhile and Roland is history, most new effect plugins and ProChannel modules are from third party developers but still Cakewalk has done nothing for the staff development! Currently, Sonar has bugs that need to be addressed but they have made it overly complicated with new features and not taken care of things that don't work correctly! No wonder staff notation is on the backburner!
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eph221
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/08/27 14:53:11
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To those who are satisfied with rewire: have you been able to rewire sibelius 8 with SPLAT?
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eph221
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/08/27 15:33:58
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So as of today, Sibelius 8 rewires ok. Never mind!
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cparmerlee
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/08/27 21:49:47
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eph221
So as of today, Sibelius 8 rewires ok. Never mind!
Not really. "Normal" Rewire uses audio streams. Finale doesn't support Rewire at all. Sibelius supports it, but only as a single stereo mix, which is basically worthless for DAW purposes. StudioOne can send each staff to the DAW as an audio stream, which is what ought to be universal. However, you can send the MIDI from Sibelius unto MIDI tracks in Sonar and use Rewire to sync the timing. I did a little testing with that, but haven't tried to do a big project that way, as Sibelius still has some pretty major deficiencies that keep it from being the "go to" notation program for me.
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eph221
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/08/27 22:22:16
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Oh, thanks for the knowledge. I only understood it in the latter sense. Sometimes I think cakewalk has a pet alien that knows how to incorporate notation into sonar...but we as humans can only handle so much change (to whit the gradual monthly changes). Cakewalk is headquartered in the same city as Noam Chomsky afterall.
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kevinwal
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/08/27 23:00:38
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eph221
Oh, thanks for the knowledge. I only understood it in the latter sense. Sometimes I think cakewalk has a pet alien that knows how to incorporate notation into sonar...but we as humans can only handle so much change (to whit the gradual monthly changes). Cakewalk is headquartered in the same city as Noam Chomsky afterall.
Lol! Awesome Noam Chomsky reference!
post edited by kevinwal - 2015/08/27 23:08:54
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annifarkle
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/08/28 02:48:00
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jsg
annifarkle
jsg
As I mentioned in the other notation thread, a few weeks ago I got an email from Cakewalk asking me to send them images of how dotted, tied and nested triplets look in Sibelius. I honored the request (obviously!) so let's hope that the developers are going to finally fix these long-standing issues.
I also sent them a file showing the proper place for a dot next to a note--it should never been on a staff line, but always slightly above it. Perhaps this too will be repaired.
Jerry
http://www.jerrygerber.com
1. How about when you right click the c note on the treble staff or the e note on the bass staff and the note properties window doesn't pop up? Instead you get the process menu.
2. How about when you try to copy and paste something it pastes it a measure or further back from where you're telling it you want it?
3. How about when you're trying to add 32nd notes one after the other and they pop forward to align with the preceding note, so you have to keep moving them back to the right position.
4. How about being able to write a second or third verse below the 1st line of lyrics?
These are just a few off the top of my head.
1. If you click just to the left or right of the note when the note is on a lower ledger line you can get to the properties. If that doesn't work you can always use event inspector. Or, if you drag the note whose properties you need down a few ledger lines and drag it back that seems to work too.
2. I haven't seen that issue. Are you using Sonar Platinum?
3. I have no issue with 32nds notes. Did you check your note resolution display in the staff view and make sure it's on the highest resolution?
4. I don't use Sonar for lyrics, can't help there.
JG
http://www.jerrygerber.com
Just now saw this reply. 2. Sonar Platinum but I've seen it in earlier versions too. I had this happen again two days ago. 3. Yes I had the resolution on 32nd notes.
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morganfm71
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/02 00:59:53
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I would like to see an easier way to choose the note durations. Sibelius has the number pad which works well enough for me, but I would be okay with a line of note icons above the staff. I'd be fine with driving my mouse up there to click on them. Cakewalk 3.1 had this kind of set up. Yes. I have been using Cakewalk since 3.1. 
post edited by morganfm71 - 2015/09/02 01:10:45
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jsg
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/03 16:24:48
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After installing Hopkinton last week, the first thing I noticed (naturally since I use the staff view frequently) was that the amount of "snap-to" was off by one. In other words, if I select a quarter note, the snap-to moved in eighths, if I select an eighth note, the snap-to moved by sixteeenths, and so on. After finally fixing the snap function in Sonar Platinum (it got messed up beginning with X1) it somehow got broken again, but broken in a slightly different way. I cannot be the only person who has noticed this. Of course I submitted a bug report. Jerry http://www.jerrygerber.com
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Sidroe
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/04 08:10:59
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☄ Helpfulby MArwood 2015/09/04 19:50:59
BOY! I never had an inkling that this thread when I created it would last this long. Surely, the bakers can't ignore these issues with SV any longer. Come on, Cake!
And I thank all of you for keeping this topic on the table with all your great posts.
Sonar Platinum, Sonar X3e, Sonar X2a , Sonar X1 Expanded and 8.5.3 (32 and 64 bit), Windows 10 on a Toshiba P75-A7200 Laptop with i7 @ 2.4 quad and 8 gigs of RAM and secondary WD 1 Tb drive, Windows 10 desktop, Asus i5 @ 3.2 quad, 12 gigs RAM, 1 Tb drive, 1 500 gig drive, MOTU 24io, 2 Roland Studio Captures, Saffire 6 USB for laptop, Soundtracs Topaz Project 8 mixer, Alesis Monitor 2s, Event BAS 20/20s, Roland Micro-Monitor BA-8s, and 45 years worth of collecting FX, Mics, Amps, Guitars, and Keyboards!
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 00:01:56
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☄ Helpfulby Tunerman 2015/09/05 02:15:40
Well , I have to say this thread sure is one Epic Thread …. I have stayed out of it on purpose up until this moment … I feel that members like Jerry and a few of the other hard core contributors have championed the fix SONARs notation cause much more elegantly then I could have posibly done …. these guys are power users in my book My Fundamental issue w SONARS lack of notation abilities is based on one simple truth …. Which I will get to eventually lol Written Music is one of the few Universal languages we have on This Planet Earth … With written Music you have a language that crosses every possible barrier that exists in most of All Human Kinds localized attempts at communication … What are some of these barriers ? Ethnicity or Origin of Birth / Geographical Spoken Dialect , Gender, Choice of Worship …ect add nausem Any person on this planet that happens to be fluent in reading and writing music already posses the key that unlocks the cage of limitation that mankind's localized attempts at communication have built …. It is no accident that much of this worlds beloved Music & Masterpiece's that have stood the test of time have had a humble birth from within the mind and heart of the Composer … One of the Composers primary tools for recording and sharing his Musical Ideas was a simple pen and Music Staff Paper ….. Once a Composer committed his or her composition to paper The Composer was in possession of a document . When this document was an accurate representation of the Composers Inspiration and hard work , the Composer was now in a position to share his or her work with The World and have this Music Played in any Country by Anyone who could read and play written Music …. ( they also needed what ever Chops it took to be able to play / give wings to the musical interpretation )  IMHO, Creative intelligent human beings are hard wired in an archetypal sort of way and many have the strong desire to leave or create something of value to live on long after they have moved on … The fundamental Ideal and hallmark a person with that value has is to leave The Wold A Better Place than they found it…. One of the most amazing attributes of written Music as a universal language is it's ability to travel across time in a forward time line direction and communicate with the future generations of the "yet to be born musicians " …. to be fair , The same can be said of many of mankind's achievements in art , poetry, literature , theater, science , mathematics and so many other highly specialized respective topics and their respective future practitioners . in closing , Music is governed by many of the fundamental laws and attributes that are contained in Mathematics & Science . In the simplest of terms I can muster up , To have a non working correctly staff view = the equivalent of not abiding with the laws of Mathematics … (regardless of the reason why it doesn't work correctly or as it should ) To not abide by the laws of Mathematics = to no longer having a properly functioning written Universal language . like it or not , it really is that simple folks , I hate to say it , but it is true  Kenny
post edited by kennywtelejazz - 2015/09/05 01:02:46
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mudgel
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 04:47:53
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Both are onl
I don't mean to be disagreeable but written music in the form of a staff with octaves that comprise 8 full tones etc etc is no more universal than English as a spoken and written language.
it is only available and understood by those who learn to read and write and speak that language the same as any.
Asian music in its various forms bears no resemblance in sound with respect to octaves and 8 tones for each, or written the way you're considering the classical form of presenting composition. Sorry its no more a reason for Cakewalks commitment to improving Sonar's notation. But if you'd read the other thread that actually focuses on what Cakewalk has done you'll find that gradually, little bit by little bit, Cakewalk are improving notation.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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morganfm71
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 05:17:11
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mudgel
But if you'd read the other thread that actually focuses on what Cakewalk has done you'll find that gradually, little bit by little bit, Cakewalk are improving notation.
Do you have a link for that thread? Thanks.
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Sidroe
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 10:04:21
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Great comment, Kenny! As a long time user of the universal language I do applaud the well written post. Although, I do agree with Mudgel that if you want to be able to play or interpret a piece of music it is far more complex on many levels to speak or write the language. That is why we have so many musician's that play by ear!
When I was taking classical piano at a very early age, my mother was taken aside by my teacher one day. My mother was informed that my teacher was going to have to release me if I didn't start learning to read. By her observations I was listening and watching the fingers more than the actual reading of the paper.
Thus, I was dragged kicking and screaming in to learning the universal language. And I am so GLAD I did. That ability has led to me spending the rest of my life being exposed to just about any kind of music you can think of. If it was written it was so much easier and quicker to pick up that sheet and the ear I was blessed with helped me to pick out what was left.
Have you ever thought about how short rehearsal would be if everyone read music? That terrible task of re-playing that one section over and over because there is a note that just isn't right? And all the time you would save not arguing about a lick that isn't right? These are all things that we have experienced in our purgatory of sound.
How shocked I was when I grew old enough to actually start playing in bands. All that time learning to read and write music spent for naught because nobody else in the band has ever even had a music lesson much less read or write.
BOTTOM LINE: There are many reasons to learn to read and write the universal languages. There is also the joy of creation of something that sounds good from thin air without having the least idea how you did it. As long as we are creating something POSITIVE with our art we just may have a glimmer of hope to change this sad, old violent world we live in.
That being said, I wish for Cake to fix the SV but in the time that we spend talking about that we could have written another song! Just one opinion amongst many.LOL
Sonar Platinum, Sonar X3e, Sonar X2a , Sonar X1 Expanded and 8.5.3 (32 and 64 bit), Windows 10 on a Toshiba P75-A7200 Laptop with i7 @ 2.4 quad and 8 gigs of RAM and secondary WD 1 Tb drive, Windows 10 desktop, Asus i5 @ 3.2 quad, 12 gigs RAM, 1 Tb drive, 1 500 gig drive, MOTU 24io, 2 Roland Studio Captures, Saffire 6 USB for laptop, Soundtracs Topaz Project 8 mixer, Alesis Monitor 2s, Event BAS 20/20s, Roland Micro-Monitor BA-8s, and 45 years worth of collecting FX, Mics, Amps, Guitars, and Keyboards!
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Paul P
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 10:47:23
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mudgel
I don't mean to be disagreeable but written music in the form of a staff with octaves that comprise 8 full tones etc etc is no more universal than English as a spoken and written language.
it is only available and understood by those who learn to read and write and speak that language the same as any.
And staff notation is a pretty poor representation of music. Putting aside its shortcomings in describing the performance of the music, which is a matter of interpretation anyway, it doesn't even show the basic structure of a piece in a straightforward manner. It's limited to even-tempered semitones and 12 of them are represented by 5 lines and 4 spaces, so confusion is built in. Different instruments, like drums, really strain staff notation. I'm learning harmonica and since you (can) use different harmonicas for different keys, you don't care which actual/theoretical note you play is, you only care about its degree in relation to the root. It's all intervals. Staff notation is useless for this and many examples are written as if the piece were in C (if you're lucky) and you're left with transposing it in your head. Or use some bizarre form of TAB. I've invented my own clumsy graphic tab and transpose any lick I'm working on into a sequence of intervals, which are valid no matter what key I'm playing in. But it's still limited to 12 semitones and three octaves and shows nothing about dynamics. Maybe we need something better than staff notation.
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ltb
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 11:16:57
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Paul P
Different instruments, like drums, really strain staff notation. I'm learning harmonica and since you (can) use different harmonicas for different keys, you don't care which actual/theoretical note you play is, you only care about its degree in relation to the root. It's all intervals. Staff notation is useless for this and many examples are written as if the piece were in C (if you're lucky) and you're left with transposing it in your head. Or use some bizarre form of TAB. I've invented my own clumsy graphic tab and transpose any lick I'm working on into a sequence of intervals, which are valid no matter what key I'm playing in. But it's still limited to 12 semitones and three octaves and shows nothing about dynamics.
Maybe we need something better than staff notation.
I'm not sure if I understand exactly what you're trying to say but you're describing the C clef. That's basic & used in standard notation.
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Brando
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 11:17:25
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Paul P
Maybe we need something better than staff notation.
(Working) Staff view will suffice for SONAR, IMO.
Brando
Cakewalk, Studio One Pro, Reaper Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL ASUS Prime Z370-A LGA1151, 32GB DDR4, Intel 8700K i7, 500 GB SSD, 3 x 1TB HDD, Windows 10 Pro 64
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Brett
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 13:16:26
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mudgel
Both are onl
I don't mean to be disagreeable but written music in the form of a staff with octaves that comprise 8 full tones etc etc is no more universal than English as a spoken and written language.
it is only available and understood by those who learn to read and write and speak that language the same as any.
Asian music in its various forms bears no resemblance in sound with respect to octaves and 8 tones for each, or written the way you're considering the classical form of presenting composition. Please give me specific examples of this. [I know one but it is still written accurately using standard notation]. This is absolute nonsense. "Asian" music, whatever that is supposed to mean, uses the same notes as Western music - just different scales to what we might be used to. Sorry its no more a reason for Cakewalks commitment to improving Sonar's notation. But if you'd read the other thread that actually focuses on what Cakewalk has done you'll find that gradually, little bit by little bit, Cakewalk are improving notation.
More nonsense. The midi standard is based on standard Western music notation. Cakewalk have made no improvements to Sonar's notation in 10 years.
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Brett
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 13:21:57
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Paul P
Different instruments, like drums, really strain staff notation.
No. Drums use drum notation and every drummer I know can read it.
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Brett
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 13:25:01
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Every time notation threads show up we have people turning up claiming that notation isn't important. Sonar is full of features I never use but I don't feel the need to crap on about how useless a step sequencer is to a "real musician" or that I don't need another vintage analogue tube compressing exicator plugin to go with my other three hundred analogue compressors.
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skinnybones lampshade
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 21:15:47
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I agree with you, Brett.
If I'm participating in an art forum, and someone starts a thread about how (for example) all the paint brushes available to them drop bristles left and right and they wish the quality could be improved, I don't butt in to the thread to inform everyone that all the cognoscenti know that sculpting is the only art form worthy of discussion, so the plebeians should keep their disgusting paint brush complaints to themselves (Disclaimer: This is not how I feel :) ).
LJ
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backwoods
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 21:22:46
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The thing about Notation requests is that the same people ( but mpstly vintage vibe )make them over and over and over again and sometimes appear to be zealots. What is more annoying- people who are ridiculously optimistic and will let Sonar brook no criticism or the other eternally pessimistic souls....
If the work to notation would require major manpower- why should I as a non user want to fund that?
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