skinnybones lampshade
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 21:27:30
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Well, I've been patiently funding all kinds of features that I don't use for years, so I figure every now and then, my turn will come up :)
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backwoods
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 21:31:10
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:) Just so you know, it would be a hell of a lot quicker to just switch DAW.
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skinnybones lampshade
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 21:32:47
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True, but I've been with Cakewalk since it was Twelve Tone Systems, so it seems hope springs eternal :)
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Brando
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 21:33:17
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☄ Helpfulby morganfm71 2015/09/08 13:29:07
backwoods The thing about Notation requests is that the same people ( but mpstly vintage vibe )make them over and over and over again and sometimes appear to be zealots. What is more annoying- people who are ridiculously optimistic and will let Sonar brook no criticism or the other eternally pessimistic souls.... If the work to notation would require major manpower- why should I as a non user want to fund that?
Same could be argued about Drum Replacer, the New Start Screen, etc. Even CCC. The software is not a la carte. I (and you) paid for software that includes a staff view and rudimentary notation. It is a feature of the software and in many cases was a contributing factor to users choosing SONAR (or one of its predecessors).
Brando Cakewalk, Studio One Pro, Reaper Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL ASUS Prime Z370-A LGA1151, 32GB DDR4, Intel 8700K i7, 500 GB SSD, 3 x 1TB HDD, Windows 10 Pro 64
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backwoods
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 21:36:05
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Buy something for what it is- not for something you desire it to be in the future. I hope you guys get what you want but maybe it's not that easy or they would have done it already. Or maybe not many people want it!
post edited by backwoods - 2015/09/05 21:45:09
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skinnybones lampshade
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 21:42:11
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The nice thing is that you are contributing the already-very-impressive post count of a thread that proves that many people do, in fact, care.
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backwoods
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 21:42:49
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I'd like to know the percentage of user base.
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skinnybones lampshade
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 21:45:44
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Maybe you could ask Cakewalk to spend some time developing that very significant musical feature: Percentage of User Base Interested in Certain Topics :)
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backwoods
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 21:46:20
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I'd rather just make rough estimates based on thread length :)
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skinnybones lampshade
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 22:00:35
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OK, 819 replies as of now - How does that compare with other threads and/or requests for other improvements or changes to existing features in terms of percentage of user base?
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backwoods
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 22:11:09
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It's not a request exactly is it. If it is it should be moved to suggestion box. My guess- pulled from ether with no knowledge of customer surveys, inner cakewalk workings, user base etc etc : less than 5 per cent. (totally arbitrary guess) what's yours?
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skinnybones lampshade
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 22:20:18
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My guess would be, that if the Bakers spent the 5% you estimate of their time on improving notation, all of us would be very satisfied :)
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backwoods
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 22:21:09
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Maybe they already are lampshade. I hope you get your wish sir :)
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skinnybones lampshade
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 22:25:09
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☄ Helpfulby backwoods 2015/09/05 22:33:37
Thank you :) . That was very sweet. P.S. I'm not a sir, but I have really enjoyed this civil exchange with you!
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Brando
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 22:43:14
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backwoods Buy something for what it is- not for something you desire it to be in the future. I hope you guys get what you want but maybe it's not that easy or they would have done it already. Or maybe not many people want it!
Nonsense. The whole premise of the membership model was that cake would roll out a mix of new features and fixes on a monthly basis. No one could have predicted that (for example) one of the features would be Drum Replacer. No one knows whether or what (if anything) Cake has in store for Notation. This is only about a user base trying to voice their opinion.
Brando Cakewalk, Studio One Pro, Reaper Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL ASUS Prime Z370-A LGA1151, 32GB DDR4, Intel 8700K i7, 500 GB SSD, 3 x 1TB HDD, Windows 10 Pro 64
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 22:45:17
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I don't think this topic really has anything to do with if you want to read music or not … as far as choosing to read …that is a personal choice … We happen to be in the first 30 + years of a Digital Revolution …. For myself personally , I'm astounded at the level and the depth of the tools I got w SONAR X 3 I think a large part of what the major complaint is …. Midi itself is very accurate and can be dialed into very precise settings … For some unexplained reason SONAR's notational tools do not seem able to reproduce absolutely correct notation in the form of what the Composer is expecting to see in the staff view …the midi end of things seem to play fine Kenny
post edited by kennywtelejazz - 2015/09/05 23:03:58
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backwoods
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 22:51:05
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From my viewpoint Kenny: I don't use Sonar Notation and never will. I don't care for it to be developed. Other daws- Cubase, Digital Performer, Pro Tools et al have superior notation. Rather than constant frustration about Sonar's notation, why not just buy another DAW?
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michaelhanson
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/05 23:10:27
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skinnybones lampshade OK, 819 replies as of now - How does that compare with other threads and/or requests for other improvements or changes to existing features in terms of percentage of user base?
The FSF in the Coffee House is still in the lead, with over 42,839 posts.....and that's about no topic at all. 😄
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/06 00:15:32
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backwoods From my viewpoint Kenny: I don't use Sonar Notation and never will. I don't care for it to be developed. Other daws- Cubase, Digital Performer, Pro Tools et al have superior notation. Rather than constant frustration about Sonar's notation, why not just buy another DAW?
hello backwoods , I am perfectly willing and able to accept your view point…. For some people , this notation issue is an important feature they would like to have fixed in SONAR …. In my Case I have already solved this problem . I honestly don't need to go out and buy another DAW that has superior notational abilities …. I already have that base covered w Logic Pro 9 , Samplitude Pro X2 and an older version of Cubase … Then for grins and giggles I have Musescore 2 and a light version of Forte…. FWIW, I happen to love working with DAW's that have no notational capabilities what so ever … I'm still a hardcore Project 5 user and I happen to Love Abelton Live 9.2 …. I happen to think it is fantastic as far as what can be done in both audio and midi in these exceptional music programs …. For the record, I'm in both camps and at the end of the day I'm not looking to take sides … My Sonar experience only goes back 10 years and I started out with Home Studio 2 in 2005 … There are many folks that got 5 to almost 10 years on that but honestly , thats not the point I'm looking to make . I'm bringing it up because when all is said and done I'm still a guy that feels the most comfortable using SONAR So , getting back to what I had to do to solve this notation problem , From my point of view , my solution has brought up it's own set of problems …. To solve my notational issues I've had to become a "Jack of multiple DAW's and a Master of None " Let's face it folks …….I'm not The Big C ….. … I'm just the little K …lol As a DAW SONAR is pretty hard to beat …. Having said that , I happen to think that most SONAR users that use notation just want a more refined staff view that functions correctly …..How many ways can I say the same thing ? Not everybody wants to go out and buy a new DAW just for that one feature , a lot of people want to stay with what they know and feel comfortable with …. all the best , Kenny
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mettelus
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/06 00:42:06
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backwoods Buy something for what it is- not for something you desire it to be in the future.
As many have made these requests for over a decade, banking on "hope" often ends up a fool's errand, especially with zero insight into what is really happening. As many features are 1-3 months out, and this hasn't even made the list, I wouldn't be banking on this magically appearing. That goes for all feature requests, especially those that may be complex in nature. This thread might end with "2025 or BUST."
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annifarkle
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/07 20:39:19
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☄ Helpfulby skinnybones lampshade 2015/09/07 21:17:41
backwoods From my viewpoint Kenny: I don't use Sonar Notation and never will. I don't care for it to be developed. Other daws- Cubase, Digital Performer, Pro Tools et al have superior notation. Rather than constant frustration about Sonar's notation, why not just buy another DAW?
Well for a really good reason. Having been with Cakewalk for 20 years and spent a lot of time and money staying with it, and loving it most of the time, it seems a small thing in comparison to wish the notation fixed rather than jumping ship and having to spend a great deal of time and money to get a ride on that "other ship". To say that Cakewalk shouldn't spend time fixing notation is like saying that a car manufacturer (take your pick) shouldn't fix the problem with the windshield wipers (or any other car part you care to pick) because "Hey everything else works so great and I live in the desert so I never need them. To heck with all you other drivers!" The minute that Cakewalk decided to include notation they had an obligation to make sure that it worked. Sure I would love for them to make improvements. BUT I would settle for them fixing the things that are broken that are there already.
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skinnybones lampshade
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/07 21:21:29
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☄ Helpfulby jatoth 2015/09/08 10:50:01
Well said, annifarkle . The notion that musicians using Sonar should be above wishing that the included notation element worked somewhat better (because only "old school" fogeys care about notation, possibly? -and what a nerve those notation nuts have, wanting any precious time possibly taken away from the cutting-edge elements the cutting-edge users want?), and the strange counter arguments, like, "Gee, why don't you just buy another DAW?" are bemusing. We'd just like some time spent making using notation pleasant. LJ
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Kev999
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/08 04:27:49
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☄ Helpfulby skinnybones lampshade 2015/09/08 06:21:59
It shouldn't really matter whether you believe that staff notation is a good or bad system. It's there so make use of it. I'm not a big fan of staff notation myself, but I do find that Staff View and Piano Roll View complement each other quite well so I use them both. They each provide a slightly different perspective on the same midi data. One shows a better overview of the arrangement while the other is ideal for detailed editing. It doesn't have to be "either/or". We should all be using all the available tools that prove to be useful.
Stating that you will never use a particular feature just seems like posturing. I get the impression that some users are taking a stance against Staff View because they apparently think it belongs to some elite set that they don't want to be associated with. Maybe it's not rock-n-roll enough. There are probably some other important features in Sonar that I have not gotten round to incorporating into any of projects myself yet, but I am certainly not ruling out taking any of these onboard in the future.
SonarPlatinum∞(22.11.0.111)|Mixbus32C(4.3.19)|DigitalPerformer(9.5.1)|Reaper(5.77)FractalDesign:DefineR5|i7-6850k@4.1GHz|16GB@2666MHz-DDR4|MSI:GamingProCarbonX99a|Matrox:M9148(x2)|UAD2solo(6.5.2)|W7Ult-x64-SP1 Audient:iD22+ASP800|KRK:VXT6|+various-outboard-gear|+guitars&basses, etc. Having fun at work lately
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Brando
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/08 08:29:15
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Kev999 It shouldn't really matter whether you believe that staff notation is a good or bad system. It's there so make use of it. I'm not a big fan of staff notation myself, but I do find that Staff View and Piano Roll View complement each other quite well so I use them both. They each provide a slightly different perspective on the same midi data. One shows a better overview of the arrangement while the other is ideal for detailed editing. It doesn't have to be "either/or". We should all be using all the available tools that prove to be useful.
Stating that you will never use a particular feature just seems like posturing. I get the impression that some users are taking a stance against Staff View because they apparently think it belongs to some elite set that they don't want to be associated with. Maybe it's not rock-n-roll enough. There are probably some other important features in Sonar that I have not gotten round to incorporating into any of projects myself yet, but I am certainly not ruling out taking any of these onboard in the future.
Careful Kev - keep that up and someone will be telling you to go and use another DAW.
Brando Cakewalk, Studio One Pro, Reaper Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL ASUS Prime Z370-A LGA1151, 32GB DDR4, Intel 8700K i7, 500 GB SSD, 3 x 1TB HDD, Windows 10 Pro 64
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Brett
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/08 09:16:12
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☄ Helpfulby morganfm71 2015/09/08 17:15:17
Kev999 ... Staff View and Piano Roll View complement each other quite well so I use them both. They each provide a slightly different perspective on the same midi data. One shows a better overview of the arrangement while the other is ideal for detailed editing. It doesn't have to be "either/or". We should all be using all the available tools that prove to be useful.
That's how I use it. I have the staff view open at the top of the screen and use the piano view to enter data.
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Jimbo 88
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/08 09:43:55
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☄ Helpfulby morganfm71 2015/09/08 13:32:40
Let me point put that there was a time when Sonar's "Staff View" was way better than the rest of the DAWs.
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Anderton
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/08 10:05:24
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Kev999 I get the impression that some users are taking a stance against Staff View because they apparently think it belongs to some elite set that they don't want to be associated with. Maybe it's not rock-n-roll enough.
You may be right, but I don't recall seeing anyone say that. I have, however, seen some staff view proponents theorize that people who aren't interested in staff view feel that way, which I think applies at most to a small minority, if at all. Also speaking of small minorities, some staff view proponents come off as thinking they're more sophisticated for using it and feel those who don't aren't "real musicians." However, my take is that the vast majority of people to whom staff view is important feel that way simply because they find it a more comfortable/familiar or productive environment for editing, and don't attach value judgments to it one way or the other. It's just another tool to them.
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BobF
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/08 10:10:55
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IMO, the anti-SV crowd is concerned that an intense amount of development pouring into SV would necessarily take away from development in other areas. Of course this isn't necessarily true, depending on how Cake went about staffing* this [to date] fictitious Staff View initiative.
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jatoth
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/08 12:41:02
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backwoods Buy something for what it is- not for something you desire it to be in the future. I hope you guys get what you want but maybe it's not that easy or they would have done it already. Or maybe not many people want it!
We did! Sonar has advertized Staff View as a MIDI editing feature for at least the last 7 years that I have been supporting CW. There are many here who have been using Sonar a lot longer, and claim the Staff View issues predate my beginning with CW. When we purchased Sonar we thought the feature would work properly. With every new release, we were again disappointed with the lack of attention to known issues. We were/are told repeatedly, "We are looking at it", It's on our radar", "under new ownership, now we might be able to get to it", etc. Yet, 7 years and 5 major releases later, we are still having the same discussion. I guess those of us "hoping" for the promised fixes are the definition of insanity. Using Anni's analogy above, if the windshield wipers on the car that I bought didn't work properly, telling me to "just go buy a different car" is disingenuous at best. And telling me, "but your car has bluetooth, GPS, rear camera, collision avoidance, etc." is no better. I/we just want the windshield wipers to work. Why is that too much to ask?
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morganfm71
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/08 13:34:08
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Pro Tools has only very recently added a notation view. I think version 9? I have 6 and 7 and only use Pro Tools when forced to. Strictly because it doesn't have notation. There are three main reasons I use Sonar, in order of significance: - It has notation view
- I am very familiar with the application
- It doesn't have the insane system requirements of Pro Tools.
I require notation view to compose two or more instrument parts simultaneously. I simply cannot do it in PRV. If I have a bassline, keys, and three horns...I'm going to notation view for composing/editing. I use Sibelius to print more legit sheet music, but it kind of sucks for composing/editing music as you're writing it.
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