backwoods
I'd like to know the percentage of user base. 

 How about the percentage that left for another DAW? You can google that.

Brando

backwoods
Buy something for what it is- not for something you desire it to be in the future. I hope you guys get what you want but maybe it's not that easy or they would have done it already. Or maybe not many people want it!

Nonsense. The whole premise of the membership model was that cake would roll out a mix of new features and fixes on a monthly basis. No one could have predicted that (for example) one of the features would be Drum Replacer. No one knows whether or what (if anything) Cake has in store for Notation. This is only about a user base trying to voice their opinion. 

 Most of them used Sonar since it had notation.  I started with Digital Orchestra which had nice notation in W98. I needed a new app because of XP.  I tried the watered down version of Cubase, didn't like it.  I started on Music Creator, Home Studio and then Sonar 2.  I used Sonar 2 and Gigastudio from then on and needed a score editor to see what I was doing.  Eventually I got use to not using a score editor but for complex stuff sometimes eyes work better than ears.
 I find notation programs far more annoying to work with when I don't need printed parts. It's more time consuming than using notation in a DAW.
 The complainers in this thread are not trolls but long time users who don't want to fork over another $400-500 for something like Cubase and also the time learning the app. I think those who never had to use this feature in Sonar don't know what it is like to walk in the others' shoes.  There two options, one is to deal with it or move on to something else.  I don't think this needs to be repeated. 

Brando

backwoods

BobF
IMO, the anti-SV crowd is concerned that an intense amount of development pouring into SV would necessarily take away from development in other areas.  Of course this isn't necessarily true, depending on how Cake went about staffing* this [to date] fictitious Staff View initiative.

 
I agree the staff view initiative is fictitious. Little progress has been made for as long as I've been about (about a decade). What conclusions would a logical person draw from this? I'm asking the wrong people I think.  BTW I'm a pianist and have read notation since I was about 6 years old, I don't hate it. I just don't think every DAW has to be exactly the same.

You're overlooking something critical. SONAR has Staff View NOW. Nobody is advocating adding something that isn't there. Most users are simply asking for all aspects of the tool to work correctly. To use Anni's windshield wiper analogy, the car came with them - they should work.
You seem to be advocating for (the equivalent of) the wipers being pulled off the car - if cake had no intention of ever letting its users use staff view, completely removing it from future versions would at least be a clear communication of their intention. As a user who paid for it I would be ticked off but at least I would understand cakewalk is "differentiating itself" from other daws that do have professional, usable staff/notation views.
Instead of advocating that users should switch daws, how about just avoiding discussions that advocate notation improvements in our daw of choice?

Actually, there are occasional requests for a full-blown notation system inside Sonar that is comparable to Sibelius or Notion.  This is the kind of "feature" I wouldn't want to see Cakewalk head toward.  Check out the Notion forum.  Imagine adding that load to what's already here for Sonar.
 
I do wish the SV bugs would get fixed ASAP though for the benefit of the SV users.  Maybe there's something bigger in the works that makes addressing onesy-twosy bugs not make sense ... who knows?
 
 

Fixes have been made to staff view since SONAR 2015 was introduced; there were few (if any) fixes for years before that. When SONAR 2015 was introduced some people projected the past into the future and concluded that no more fixes would ever be made to staff view and it was a dead issue.
 
If you now project the present into the future, it's reasonable to expect more fixes will be made. The main variable is the rate at which fixes will occur. 

Ok... finally got Duckbar to work with my Sonar X3... Thanks to Panu for his efforts - I finally have not icons to click on.... 
 
My question for notation view users is ......   
 
What are the bestchoice of keyboard shortcuts for SV....   I think would make sense for the Step record function to correspond so I assume I need number lock to be on?
 
 
 
 

kennywtelejazz
 
 
Speaking in general terms as far as the Elitist type of attitudes go . 
This is just a casual observation and not an attack directed at any of you fine gents or ladies ….
After laying out some big pocket change for the hardware , the software , the sample libraries, plugs and what ever other kitchen sinks we need to throw in just to do our music in todays digital world .
Is it really an Elitist attitude for a person to say ,
" Hey , I know I don't have chops on every flipping instrument I have access to in SONAR . It would sure be nice to enlist a much better player (on some of these instruments ) and give them an accurate chart in staff view to see what they can come up with " 
folks, is that asking too much ? 
 
Kenny

I get that Kenny. But it is a thin wedge kind of issue (as far I see it). Just to print out a cheat sheet and hand it to players- the Cakewalk one would look like it emanated from a dot matrix printer compared to programs like Sibelius, Finale. Steinberg has this specialized team making a new notation program and it has been years already- it is looking great but still not done.
 
Maybe I am just so anti because I live in constant minor stress that I am going to get up one day and find out that Cakewalk has gone out of business! I want to gurad against that possibility assidously, and that means an efficient business model.

backwoods
Steinberg has this specialized team making a new notation program and it has been years already- it is looking great but still not done.

 
I've heard rumors that Steinberg has ten times the number of developers working on Cubase that Cakewalk has working on SONAR. Don't know if anyone can confirm or not...
 

Maybe I am just so anti because I live in constant minor stress that I am going to get up one day and find out that Cakewalk has gone out of business! I want to gurad against that possibility assidously, and that means an efficient business model.

 
Cakewalk doesn't want to go out of business either, which is why they make the decisions they make. I can guarantee that the quickest way for Cakewalk to go out of business has nothing to do with notation, but would be to decide to make a Mac version  (Well not quite, making an Atari version would be quicker, but you get my point.)
 
People point to the number of posts in this thread as proof of a groundswell of support, but if you look at the number of unique posters, it's a different story. For example last time I checked, 5% of all the posts were from just one person. So the impression I get is that SV is very, very, very important to some people, and I would never minimize the fact that it's important to them. Presumably Cakewalk doesn't either, because they have resumed doing staff view fixes (thread title from eight months ago notwithstanding).
 
No one can deny that the emphasis on fixing bugs is currently greater at Cakewalk than at any other time in the company's history. However, it's also clear that the priority involves fixes that affect stability and global functionalities more than particular functionalities. I think it makes sense to prioritize fixes that affect all users rather than a smaller subset of users. Ideally, of course, it would be possible to accommodate both...but "ideally" spends most of its life existing as an abstract concept 
 
The idea of people leaving one program for another happens all the time. The only reason I switched to SONAR is because the program I was using lacked functionality that only SONAR had (and SONAR still has it, and the other program still doesn't...15 years later!). Before Cakewalk became part of Gibson, at trade shows CW representatives would thank me for my support. My response was always that it had nothing to do with loyalty, and that if I found something that suited my needs better, I'd switch in a heartbeat. I have jobs to do that require a DAW, and I'm a pragmatist.

Stop... It's not about printing scores - it's about midi ENTRY. Something that for lots of reasons rewire doesn't allow effectively.



Exactly.

Anderton 
You may be right, but I don't recall seeing anyone say that. I have, however, seen some staff view proponents theorize that people who aren't interested in staff view feel that way, which I think applies at most to a small minority, if at all. Also speaking of small minorities, some staff view proponents come off as thinking they're more sophisticated for using it and feel those who don't aren't "real musicians." 
 

 
Of all the feature requests and bug reports made, staff notation is the only one that is actively opposed by anyone. 
 

Brett

Anderton 
You may be right, but I don't recall seeing anyone say that. I have, however, seen some staff view proponents theorize that people who aren't interested in staff view feel that way, which I think applies at most to a small minority, if at all. Also speaking of small minorities, some staff view proponents come off as thinking they're more sophisticated for using it and feel those who don't aren't "real musicians." 
 

 
Of all the feature requests and bug reports made, staff notation is the only one that is actively opposed by anyone. 

 
You did not include what I was responding to, so you are not addressing my point. I was responding to this, which I quoted in my post:
 

Anderton

Kev999
I get the impression that some users are taking a stance against Staff View because they apparently think it belongs to some elite set that they don't want to be associated with. Maybe it's not rock-n-roll enough.

 
You may be right, but I don't recall seeing anyone say that.

 
So are you saying people were indeed objecting to staff view because they "think it belongs to some elite set that they don't want to be associated with. Maybe it's not rock-n-roll enough"?
 
I tend to think it has more to do with people who don't consider it important in their own workflow, realize it would take resources, and would rather see those resources committed to features that matter to them. Is that assessment wrong? Can you point to any posts from people who object because they think "it belongs to some elite set that they don't want to be associated with?" I just don't associate that kind of mentality with this community, by and large.

Brett

mudgel
Both are onl
I don't mean to be disagreeable but written music in the form of a staff with octaves that comprise 8 full tones etc etc is no more universal than English as a spoken and written language.
 
it is only available and understood by those who learn to read and write and speak that language the same as any.
 
Asian music in its various forms bears no resemblance in sound with respect to octaves and 8 tones for each, or written the way you're considering the classical form of presenting composition.

Please give me specific examples of this. [I know one but it is still written accurately using standard notation].
This is absolute nonsense. "Asian" music, whatever that is supposed to mean, uses the same notes as Western music - just different scales to what we might be used to. 
 

Sorry its no more a reason for Cakewalks commitment to improving Sonar's notation. But if you'd read the other thread that actually focuses on what Cakewalk has done you'll find that gradually, little bit by little bit, Cakewalk are improving notation.

More nonsense.
The midi standard is based on standard Western music notation. 
Cakewalk have made no improvements to Sonar's notation in 10 years.
 

Perhaps I should have said Eastern or Middle Eastern Music. Surely you aren't suggesting that those forms of music developed along with the Western form of music notation let alone use the same breakdown of tones based on Octaves of 8 tones. Much of that music is passed on as tradition and has no written form and while any language can be translated and represented another way I was referring to the idea that Western Music and the notation that represent it is far from Universal. No more than English is natively a universal language.
 
I don't know how you can dispute the fact that Cakewalk have made improvements to notation over these last half dozen or so releases.

Kev999

Anderton

Anderton

Kev999
I get the impression that some users are taking a stance against Staff View because they apparently think it belongs to some elite set that they don't want to be associated with. Maybe it's not rock-n-roll enough.

 
You may be right, but I don't recall seeing anyone say that.

 
So are you saying...

 
I guess you are right about this attitude not being noticably present in the Sonar forums. I've seen it a lot elsewhere though.

Another reason to appreciate the SONAR forums 

If you reread the OP it asks about confirmation for the "next list of update features," and posted 8 months ago.