Anderton
Show of hands: How many have actually downloaded and tried the Mac version? I sure like it more than GarageBand...

I downloaded it and tried it and really liked it as far as I could tell. It won't work with any of my interfaces at the moment (motu and NI) but it seemed really stable just using the onboard audio. If it would load 3rd party plugins I could see me use it. However, with Logic on my macs I think I will reach for that first. But Sonar looked really good on the Mac
 
I really appreciate that Cakewalk gave it a go. Too bad it didn't work out but that's life I guess. I didn't stop using Sonar in my personal studio because I don't like it. I just couldn't stand to work with Windows anymore and Sonar became a sore sacrifice when I switched to Macs. 

Anderton
Show of hands: How many have actually downloaded and tried the Mac version? I sure like it more than GarageBand...

I downloaded it and looked around in it for a few minutes. I played the demo and opened a new project. It looks like it could be useful to record a few tracks of audio, but I need access to my plugin library to do any work. 
 

timidi

Anderton
Show of hands: How many have actually downloaded and tried the Mac version? I sure like it more than GarageBand...

What for?

1. I have a MacBook Pro with a collection of songwriting tools. It travels with me a lot, and now that there's a Mac version of SONAR, I can start projects on the Mac when inspiration hits and then open them directly in my main computer when I get to the studio. I didn't have anywhere near the same "ease of transfer" with GarageBand. 
2. To see how the emulation works compared to the native version on Windows, in order to determine if it's viable for someone's particular needs. My reaction was "much better than expected," so for the reason given in (1), I'll keep SONAR Mac on my MacBook Pro (or its successor) until the Mac OS changes to the point where SONAR doesn't run any more.
 
I also wanted to see if the people commenting on how "emulation sucks" had actually tried it, or were just speculating.

forkol

Anderton
There were some comments about how using Codeweavers was misleading, but my understanding is that the concept of starting off with translation and then replacing parts of the code until the program is fully native is fairly common. (IIRC that's what's happening with FL Studio's Mac version.)

 
I think it was misleading by omission.  Saying that this was the 'real deal' 'Sonar running on a Mac' 'and not using any Bootcamp Trick' leads you to believe it's native.

 
According to Noel, both the PC and Mac versions run the same code, which is why the files are compatible. So if it's running the actual SONAR code, I can see why Cakewalk would consider it as SONAR running on a Mac.
 

However, it's a decision point for me whether it's an emulation, versus native run.  Emulation to me usually means it takes a performance hit versus a native app (assuming like hardware is used for both).

 
Whether there's a performance hit is less important to me than whether the performance is usable for what I want to do, as noted in my previous post. Frankly, there probably aren't a lot of people in my situation with a MacBook Pro they haul around, a full-on Windows machine in the studio, a relatively heavy travel schedule, and a desire to write songs on the road which can transfer easily to a different OS. But for those who do, SONAR Mac could be a welcome addition.

Anderton
I also wanted to see if the people commenting on how "emulation sucks" had actually tried it, or were just speculating.

In my experience, there's only a few cases where emulation is worth it.  One good example is when you have older hardware/systems are obsolete and you can build an emulator on a faster system (like the MAME arcade).  Another case is when you have hardware that is expensive or exotic or radically different than what you own and you are trying to test or develop software on it and can live with a performance hit (like some Virtual Machine software).
 
Otherwise, emulations generally do suck.  If this works for folks, then have at it.
I don't have a Mac, but for my use case, it's a waste of time to test it even if I had one. I run lots of VST's and effects in my music, and it's my opinion that I can buy much better PC hardware cheaper than the aged hardware Apple's pushing.  Finally, it's a DOA product.

Agreed that emulations aren't all that, but as Craig A said, this really was a work in progress, not a destiny of emulation. So, the idea was to make it native. Moot point now.

With that said, here's a few ways to view emulation. Software DSPs are intense. In order for your machine to perform the amount of DSP work that your projects probably will need, it needs to work as fast as it possibly can. But imagine trying to translate Windows software to Mac OS, like German to English at near-zero latency. Imagine having to make a VST plug-in work in AAX mode for PT with Bit-Bridging of sorts. Emulations are always taxing to a system, requiring more CPU and perhaps RAM because every process has to be translated. There's an additional layer of abstraction between the OS and the software. Any time that happens, there's a bottleneck in performance, and not much of a way to get around that.

ProTools had to use external DSP hardware modules for the encoding/decoding of the audio in earlier days, and still use this to handle incredibly large sessions. No way to emulate that. Even no native system could handle that much. Sonar couldn't really deal with AAX plug-ins because, for one, there's not really a need to, but even if it could, there has to be a translation. That translation slows things down. Bit-bridging from 32-Bit plug-ins to 64-Bit slows things down or intensifies CPU usage to try and keep up.

So, emulation does slow things down. You can buy a fast enough machine, but it will never out-perform the Windows Native environment. You can work, but on smaller sessions.

brconflict
Agreed that emulations aren't all that, but as Craig A said, this really was a work in progress, not a destiny of emulation. So, the idea was to make it native. Moot point now.

Hey Brian, 
My point was, if this is how they planned on making it "Native" they were doomed before they began. You don't start building a car motor with the muffler tip, you start with the block. crank, pistons , valve train etc. 
If the plan was to "convert" the code and then start fixing it, You end up with unoptimized, bolt on code that would only ever run at a percentage of efficiency of the native code. Wrong model. 
Obviously if they planned on building from the ground up, why convert the code? There are other DAWs on Mac, so the proof of concept has already been proven.
In can be done, just not by Cakewalk.

Anderton
Show of hands: How many have actually downloaded and tried the Mac version? I sure like it more than GarageBand...

Yes... I have it running here. I'm not sure what I'll use it for S I prefer windows and already have my Platinum setup quite happy there.

I was hoping it would be a way of g tying my hardcore Mac user friend's to consider what Sonar could do for them.

Well, they can still get a little of the idea and bootcamp as do to run the real thing. For me I have a seamless system running win8.1 under bootcamp. Sonar loves it!

dantarbill

Sir Les
Yes but, I was contemplating a LES PAUL Guitar in house one day.
And I got the Omega , so no worries there!
Are you reasoning it out?.....Lordy lord....Cash Cow....Lies and liars....Not withstanding much ...And where is Truth?.
If it be, as is....And it is as I see it, and I do not think I Put error into my Builds...Yet they do err much.
 How is it?.
Again Truths have funny ways of saying, or causing...If Lies be with it....then, it will never be completely stable, or bugless, or updated to its full potential....Because of that Error instilled into it by word, hexi, or other...Put to keep it being paid for.
Now, Tech is always updating...and things pass away in time to a new thingy dingy...standard...or such.
And here hear in the Word of communications......Some tease me with >>>>in other words<<<<Hate what is, is.....
Enough Proof is witnessed as of....
And I do not find it worth the Words on the Box so far....Works with Windows....to my understandings Properly...as of yet...But then, I put the PC down for a while.
I know a OS will run the x99 other than...MS OS>
And so...if No sonar ever did work out properly as was noted....From my perspective of what You cannot see here....Is my word of my truth, you do not have, or know.
So how can you,.....Understand....If I have words that Prove ;.....Money is a lie....and if it is put in front or behind or over....or for.....It does not work in Terms of Principles!
I Know I read it somewhere , Once upon a time.....It taints it everything when put into the mix......Eh?...or was it uttered in the wind holding that mercy back for a while in time with Grace over put?
Ah.
 
Cheers

I thought people had finally quit taking those kinda drugs back in the 70's.
 
(Do you share?)

 
THE WORD ...I give you everything....In terms means sharing...caring is in the intent to make Good all..or very Good use there of for the greater good of Life....
 
Now how is it, opposed?...Anti?...and or being polluted by...Buy and sell...?
 
And words said would be done , for the life time of...Product, is assumed?...The Product has no life....So, it cannot be that.
And if error is in Product, or other parts not part of the CW team...and they have no say over or for, Yet that Product relies on...others, and not all work well as vst plugs or add ons, always....As noted.
Then to claim Life time Updates is...what?
 
Now showing people a working cut version of the Product on another platform....Mac Pro laptop ..kind of working.
 
Is that a update, or a down graded version?
 
See the words used in terms, do not apply over totally the conceptual term of Updates for life.
 
And if removing that development before even passing the go, and releasing something cut down....Is a backwards term of employment....They failed because they do not want to do it..not because they cannot do it...
 
Might be too labour intensive?
Might be they have no coders for?
Might be because they needed more money, and had socked the PC user beyond 4 counts of upgrade states, to Platinum...Since 1x.
And all paid to gain some working better, some not.
 
So, again...If I bring a product to market not working properly...and sell it, then promise to fix over time....Law gives a time line on returns.
 
Let those limitations run their course....No refund, no product, and no support....Means...it's life time is over for some.
 
And some have left the group of support.
 
That might mean more migrate to something else....If lies be put, or words twisted to save face...Sorry?...is it still occurring or going to occur the sale and use of bugs to employ more updates for platinum?
 
Then, words used, continued development will be established.
 
For is so is said....is it not done?...if not done....they lied about it.
 
That said...nothing Prospers Lies or liars long!
 
That truth, is always...cause and effect of Murphy's invoked spirit to raise more mayhem.
 
But, they will not tell you, if they can get away with the crime of ...such accountings.
 
That being said, it is not only with the Idol.....but the user of it, or asking for that brings in that oddity.
 
If you dig deep enough into it....corruption is in all tied to that very thing engraved ...and or of a likeness put of living above, on or below....used and made more important than the truth...If Truth said not to do...and it is done....What comes?.
 
So, yah not totally proper, not totally stable, not totally trust worthy...Not totally in any form of good standings with some, or others.
 
As, you cannot serve both....As also said by the one saying His truths about what causes sin to manifest...and sin brings in....Death...as it is said also....and so death is because of.....And you can reason or solve for it.
 
That said test it out.
 
And so, some have fun trying it that way.,...and it really proves itself as the constant....
 
Is Caesar dead?....and they tax the land...and the house...and the food....oh sickness and suffering abound there of.
 
How far back , or how deep  you want to go seeking reason for error, to right the wrong, and put the Righteousness into all living?....
Lies only expose the Truth eventually...for the truth corrects it...not the other way around...although it is this way only for a short while learning.
 
Once you and others solve the problems of the world by word of Truths given us....The universe awaits the Birth of Edens into it by Trustworthy and True acts of pure intent.
 
Principles....I did give back to the lord some of, and some more, and some others..in likeness...So he could make more also.
And it was given, not sold, or bought...I found..I grew, I touched, I studied...I gave some to all, and all in some gave back some friendship....And then...I did as the Lord asked I do...Give onto He who made all...So he gets it back without sin done.
 
Now that is a bit of a tease...to try to understand....What is this Sir referring to?....LIFE!
You know he makes the good ones better, and puts them in Eden eventually!
 
Cheers!
 P.S I said in a post of ...I do not blame CW...And now you know why!
 

Anderton
Given the low potential return on investment, the present instability of the Apple desktop market, Logic Pro X selling for $199

I've thought all along that's the big hurdle, fly in the ointment, whatever you want to call the obstacle. Competing with Logic on price for an equivalently comprehensive, stable and refined DAW package probably can't be done. Competing with Logic in terms of quality I reckon can be done, but it would almost certainly mean releasing a solid, very well-specced DAW with a bunch of excellent plugins thrown in. Full native Mac Sonar Platinum basically. To be followed by a period of years getting the investment back before profit would be in sight, if ever.
I was pleased at the Sonar4Mac announcement, but also rather surprised.

I've a few thoughts on the Apple desktop uncertainty you've mentioned a few times now, but I'll save them for later, or maybe never. Need to think and read a bit.

Out of curiosity, do you have any idea as to the DAW market share occupied by commercial studios versus home/project/amateur/musicians recording their own stuff side of the market?

Oh well. Thanks for the attempt, Cakewalk. That effort alone shows you've been listening. I still love your products, just not Windows. Maybe someday things will align in a new way.

Sir Lance..Rings a bell.....sounds liken a "round table of knighted knights" is just around the corner?...Arther....King or crown?....And Robbin hood ? Arrow, might come out of the forest, with maid Marrie, an host of men made ready to perform?....With little John?...One washed clean in the waters, many, and lost his head...etc.
 
Well Imagine if it happened, Just liken that , Gibson of A wood worker's spirit has?....instead of Babble of Babylon..lol.
 
Now that would be a story told in terms of..History lost or time forgotten...?
 
The Round table is hard to get to....Prudence is a testament for...Truth to be born, is truth put in or upon that table always!....Righteousness comes to help, helpers are made by...The one! ...And in that...Nothing is lost!
 
Some say yeh!
 
Cheers!
 
 
 
 

kevinwal
I may be completely wrong about this, but I don't think what Cakewalk was doing on the Mac port was, strictly speaking, emulation, at least not entirely. To my mind an emulator is a virtual machine along the lines of VMWare or HyperV or even Android emulators. I suspect a good deal of the core functionality in Sonar on Mac is running completely native, with OS calls (UI, devices, etc) going through the code weaver layer, and for many types of those calls I wouldn't be surprised to see minimal overhead.

As I have written before, you are right. Anyone interested how it works can check there:
https://www.winehq.org/

Wine (originally an acronym for "Wine Is Not an Emulator")

 
I have X2 and X3 running that way (under Linux). Command Center runs and install Platinum, but Platinum exists immediately when started, without giving a hint what is wrong. Other then that, with some tweaks, things are running fine. Soft Synth (Z3TA, TruePiano) when running under Linux hosts (also throw Wine) are usable and have low latency. Sonar adds quite some latency, but the system on which I was using it is archaic (Centrino based). I could not test yet on i7 (using ASIO mode in Sonar requires careful tuning and compatible versions of intermediate layers, I have not found time to set that up).
 

azslow3

kevinwal
I may be completely wrong about this, but I don't think what Cakewalk was doing on the Mac port was, strictly speaking, emulation, at least not entirely. To my mind an emulator is a virtual machine along the lines of VMWare or HyperV or even Android emulators. I suspect a good deal of the core functionality in Sonar on Mac is running completely native, with OS calls (UI, devices, etc) going through the code weaver layer, and for many types of those calls I wouldn't be surprised to see minimal overhead.

As I have written before, you are right. Anyone interested how it works can check there:
https://www.winehq.org/

Wine (originally an acronym for "Wine Is Not an Emulator")

 
I have X2 and X3 running that way (under Linux). Command Center runs and install Platinum, but Platinum exists immediately when started, without giving a hint what is wrong. Other then that, with some tweaks, things are running fine. Soft Synth (Z3TA, TruePiano) when running under Linux hosts (also throw Wine) are usable and have low latency. Sonar adds quite some latency, but the system on which I was using it is archaic (Centrino based). I could not test yet on i7 (using ASIO mode in Sonar requires careful tuning and compatible versions of intermediate layers, I have not found time to set that up).
 

Under WINE, can you run a project of 56 tracks, each with at minimum 4 Take Lanes per track, and 3 emulation Waves plug-ins per track at default buffer settings without audio frequent drop-outs?

WINE isn't really an emulator, correct. It's a translator.

I'm actually an Ubuntu fan, and Linux OS's are by far some of the most reliable and speediest OS's on the planet, relied upon by the savviest of businesses. My company uses Linux machines in physical and AWS cloud-based form to much success. This is why WINE could potentially be pretty fast. The OS underneath is stripped down of nearly everything else that's intensive. Windows and Mac OS can't easily be so stripped down, unfortunately. 

C Hudson

Anderton
 
.. the present instability of the Apple desktop market,  

You keep mentioning this, but where are you pulling your data from? PC sales growth has once again shrunk and Mac has for the first time since 2001 shown decline. Thats hardly cause to label something unstable. 
If that is the case the PC/Windows market has been unstable for the last 10 years.

 
From Netmarketshare, Mac OS X market share:
 
2017 2.94%
2016 3.74%
2015 3.92%
2014 3.68%
2013 6.25%
2012 5.83%
 
Some of the older Mac OS versions may be part of the single-digit “other” category, but the above gives you a good idea of market share OS.
 
However I was referring primarily to the concern from professionals in the "creative" fields (video, music, publishing, etc.) about Apple's apparent lack of interest in markets beyond mobile. The reality is creative types who need to get a computer now can either buy a Windows machine with state of the art hardware, or a Mac that costs more with hardware that's 2-3 generations behind, designed four years ago, and has limited expandability. In another thread someone claimed they hadn't heard about dissatisfaction with Apple from professionals; I included a bunch of links but don't feel like taking the time to find the links again. Here's one of many.
 
Furthermore, there's also no guarantee that Apple won't bundle Logic Pro X with new desktops to help sell hardware, which after all, is where Apple makes its bucks (remember, the price of Logic dropped from $999 to $199 - you can do those kind of things when you have billions of dollars in the bank from smart phones). 
 

As far as the Gibson pitch, I agree. That is a very hard sell. However, we would need to know how many people use Macs for audio creation as a possible market.

 
Estimates for Mac market share of the music market are between 45% and 55%, depending on who you ask. But the DAW market is pretty much flat (i.e., there's no big influx of new users), so the only way to gain market share is to convince existing users to switch. How many people who've invested heavily in Pro Tools, or how many Logic users, would switch to SONAR? I doubt very many.