yummay
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/17 11:03:27
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Correct me if i'm wrong, but the software that is now being called NOTION was a Cakewalk product back in the '90. I've always wondered if there was some kind of term in the contract about NOT to have the right to improve Sonar's staff view un the future... :-S
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vladasyn
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/17 11:27:20
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In the spirit of being totally honest, though... I will admit that there are no current developments to the Staff View in progress. I use staff view to enter chords for MIDI arpeggiators. I remember some time in Sonar version 7 or 8, Staff was very useful, and then something changed- probably when they introduced the tools bar. I can not remember what exactly features were taken away, but it changed Staff view from useful to not useful. If we could have that older version available, that would really help. I do not need it to be able to use the general tools bar. But the basic functionality to enter simple notes in staff or fix MIDI melody line or chords should be available.
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kitekrazy1
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/17 12:03:48
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sergiobklyn
+1,987,348,329,134+1
All one has to do is google and you can find many of them jumped to Cubase who felt a staff view is a priority. I know people on this forum don't like hearing that and the work around using Rewire is an annoyance. Finale, Sibelius and Notion are separate apps designed more for composition instead of production. There is a difference. If a DAW has a certain weakness you use another one. I doubt many people who use virtual orchestra instruments run them in Pro Tools from scratch.
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jsg
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/17 14:24:03
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☄ Helpfulby jatoth 2015/01/17 18:27:00
kitekrazy1
sergiobklyn
+1,987,348,329,134+1
All one has to do is google and you can find many of them jumped to Cubase who felt a staff view is a priority. I know people on this forum don't like hearing that and the work around using Rewire is an annoyance.
Finale, Sibelius and Notion are separate apps designed more for composition instead of production. There is a difference.
If a DAW has a certain weakness you use another one. I doubt many people who use virtual orchestra instruments run them in Pro Tools from scratch.
Probably true. But the event list in Cubase is not color coded, which means patch and controller information is not distinct from notes. Editing is more difficult when the eye has to find important details that don't stand out. Sonar has the best event list; DP's event list is so small you can get eyestrain just looking at for a few minutes. I put up with Sonar's staff view for numerous reasons, but apparently, if you look at this thread, quite a few people want staff view bug fixes and improvements. I suppose the "bottom-line" is more important to CW than the integrity of the software. What else can I conclude when year after year they give the same response? "We'll get to the staff view in another future update". How many times have we heard that from CW? Jerry www.jerrygerber.com
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Elffin
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/17 15:53:59
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☄ Helpfulby jatoth 2015/01/17 18:26:50
I think that the notation side of Sonar was sold off as Overture so my guess is that the right to change the code went with it (as well as staff).
other companies have invested in notation.. avid&sibelius steinberg hired the unemployed sibelius team, presonus bought notion.
Which leaves Finale as the only real possible deal maker/collaborator.
Unless cakewalk consider using Noteflight staff (Boston based but purchased by Hal Leonard).
I recall that John presented Cakewalk with a request after a thread debating this got quite fiery a number of years back.
We are now in 2015 and are still using pre 2000 notation editor.
I would like to have my note icons back.. (with touch screen that would be great)
I would like also some drum map dev integration with sample libraries' articulations.
Fact is, I never print scores and hardlu use my copy of Sibelius, but use the capable midi settings of Sonar to create mockups.
I suppose will always look with envy at developments at other companies.
But still harbour this daft feeling that every october/november that something might improve.
P.S. Chord track - excellent idea!
P.S. I would pay £100, £200 or whatever for more staff improvements
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skinnybones lampshade
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/17 18:42:57
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I would also be very happy to see staff view improvements. I find it easiest to get an overall grasp of the harmonic structure of a piece when I view/write it in standard notation.
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Paul P
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/17 19:02:42
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skinnybones lampshade
I would also be very happy to see staff view improvements. I find it easiest to get an overall grasp of the harmonic structure of a piece when I view/write it in standard notation.
And printed out it's sure easier to read than anything else.
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The Maillard Reaction
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post edited by mister happy - 2017/12/25 02:21:28
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jsg
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/17 20:27:59
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mike_mccue
It seems to me that one of the aspects of DAW work flow that leads many people to avoid using staff view is the fact that it is so difficult to lay a tempo map over free played music.
When humans play from a staff they don't always try match a static metronome.
You can't make useful staff notation out of human performed music until it is aligned to a tempo based grid system.
I think that, twenty plus years after the invention of DAW, an attempt to lay a tempo map over free play music is still a primitive and unrewarding exercise in frustration. I feel this has led a lot of people to succumb to other more convenient ways to get sound out of their DAW.
I think the difficulty of turning the music you play on your keyboard, or other controller into staff notation substantially reduces the percentage of people who use staff view in any DAW. Lots of people can read music but only a few of them are patient enough to use it with a DAW.
It may not be obvious how this relates to people who want to write in staff view, but I believe there is a relationship between the inability of most DAWs to aid in tempo mapping over free play music, and any subsequent editing of that music in a staff view.
I think the popularity and celebration of grid based music has been a convenient distraction that has allowed every DAW provider to avoid acknowledging how poorly their products serve someone who wants to use a flexible tempo and grid system along side freely played emotionally charged music.
I do a lot of work on a simple H:M:S timeline, using the DAW as a glorified tape machine. As soon as you abandon the use of a M:B:T timeline any hope of integrating staff view in a DAW project is lost.
I'd love to have great tools that allow for easy integration of subtle tempo changes and all the power that grid based editing, including staff view editing, offers.
This above comment really strikes home at the difference between composition and improvisation. When you turn on a tape recorder, or a DAW, and just play into it, unless you are able to follow a metronome precisely, though the music will be recorded faithfully, the actually metric, rhythmic and tempo values will be problematic, this is why quantizing the score becomes important. When I was doing music for computer games, that's the way I'd work, I would essentially improvise and record, improvise and record, building up tracks to create a finished piece. I didn't need a written score. Though this method does involve making decisions, I don't consider it composition in the sense of actually writing down music in detail on manuscript paper, in a program like Sibelius, or in a DAW. If you really understand tempo maps, and you think like a conductor, Sonar allows great flexibility in terms of changing tempos by tiny or large amounts, anywhere in the measure, it handles slowing down and speeding up tempos very well (over many measures or just within a measure) and this in no way is limited or impacted by working in the staff view. It really all depends on how you think about music and how well-trained you are in composition. Though the staff view has numerous issues, I don't find tempo control to be one of them. I don't find composing in the staff view much different than composing on manuscript paper, except one main difference: In Sonar I can hear my ideas immediately. JG www.jerrygerber.com
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The Maillard Reaction
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post edited by mister happy - 2017/12/25 02:21:42
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Paul P
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/17 23:56:19
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I get the feeling that if there was enough discussion of the calibre of the last few posts, Staff view might get some attention. It would be nice if a tutorial existed that explained the various possible workflows then showed what you can and cannot do and what is problematic. I'm sure there'd be a lot to learn, both from the daw and music theory points of view.
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Guitarpima
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/18 00:56:41
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The "Staff" view IS the original DAW. Everything else is rote.
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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Kamikaze
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/18 01:42:44
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Paul P
I get the feeling that if there was enough discussion of the calibre of the last few posts, Staff view might get some attention. It would be nice if a tutorial existed that explained the various possible workflows then showed what you can and cannot do and what is problematic. I'm sure there'd be a lot to learn, both from the daw and music theory points of view.
I think if Cake tried to make a good quality tutorial for staff view, they'd be forced to over haul it. Can you imagine. "When dealing with triplets, simple.....er..........ah...........hmmmmmmm.....ah Ok?!?!?!?" 
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vintagevibe
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 11:12:15
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Bill Jackson [Cakewalk]
We frequently (annuallyish) investigate Staff View improvements, or even an overhaul. It's not "dead" nor "abandoned." It has just been "deferred" due to other priorities that impact a larger group of customers. Don't lose hope. We understand there is room for improvement and intend to tackle it eventually. Our new release model will allow us to budget time and resources more easily, so it's more realistic now than it has been in years. Thanks for being patient.
With all due respect Cakewalk has been saying this for 20 years (there were some very minor improvements at one point that were later removed). When the X series was released Cakewalk spokesmen said that with the new Skylight interface they are now poised to visit notation. Now its the new "release model". Cakewalk has intended "to tackle it" since the 90's but it has been ignored. Talking about it on the forum but not doing it for 20 years is might be seen as intentionally giving a certain impression to keep customers. It' is unfair to people asking for it to lead them on but never do it. Others from Cakewalk have told me it will never get any major upgrade. It would be fair to tell customers that it will never be done since 2 decades have proven that to be the case.
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Sidroe
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 11:35:35
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WOW! When I started this thread I figured there would be a few responses and it would quickly disappear. I am so comforted to know that there are so many of us that want this , to us, critical feature fixed. Truthfully, I am very doubtful that we will see the notation window fixed. I hope more people chime in and maybe Gibson will take note that this feature is really worth investing the time and effort to fix it.
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cityrat
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 11:42:21
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Sidroe
WOW! When I started this thread I figured there would be a few responses and it would quickly disappear. I am so comforted to know that there are so many of us that want this , to us, critical feature fixed.
Same with me. I hope enough of us "squeaky wheels" will be able to communicate our desires w/o it being perceived as rude. But I do think the only way we can make a dent in this is to just keep asking and being as clear as possible what we want.
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SONARtist
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 11:59:10
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I too would like to have "good" notation within SONAR. I don't need to have the fully-blown and costly Finale or Sibelius et al, but I do need to print off what I compose or arrange to give to other musicians (I don't have ALL the skills :-)
I used to do it within Cake until something changed a few years back. Now I am doing this work by hand.
On another note: I was on the "Features & Ideas" section of the "Feedback Loop" board where many good ideas were being touted, but nothing about notation ! Shouldn't we raise our voices over there .... ?
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Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk]
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 12:01:55
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I can see this is a hot topic, so I took a look at the Feature Request forum ( http://forum.cakewalk.com/Features-Ideas-f76.aspx). Maybe I missed something, but I don't see any Staff View features or requests listed in the 2 pages there. If there are, I unfortunately missed it and they are definitely not the most popular topics. Anyways, to start addressing concerns we'll need to know what Staff users really want/need and to see what type of support they get. Please take a moment and start listing what you'd like to see over in that forum. vintagevibe
....
Others from Cakewalk have told me it will never get any major upgrade.
.....
Do you remember who those employees were and what year? It's entirely possible they aren't even with the company anymore.
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Kamikaze
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 12:12:57
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Seth, it seems that what most people want are the bug fixed. As these aren't features requests, then they don't belong there. I was going to create a feature request, but it seems the main issues are snapping issues, and triplets. As the thread is titles ' No Notations fixes' not 'No new notation features'.
Seems not all those who want SV looked at, cares about printing, which would be a feature request.
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Kamikaze
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 12:14:27
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BTW how many things from Feature Request have you implemented? Seems some posters think that using that section is futile.
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Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk]
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 12:24:36
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Kamikaze
BTW how many things from Feature Request have you implemented? Seems some posters think that using that section is futile.
That new forum was just introduced at the beginning of October. Since we were already in feature lock at that point, we haven't implemented anything yet.
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Kamikaze
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 12:32:59
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So you are complaining that no one has posted anything in a new forum. When people are complaining about fixes that haven't been implemented that pre-date that forum, after a new release.
I'm failing to see your logic here, which is a first for me when it comes to your input.
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Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk]
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 12:44:37
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Kamikaze
So you are complaining that no one has posted anything in a new forum. When people are complaining about fixes that haven't been implemented that pre-date that forum, after a new release.
I'm failing to see your logic here, which is a first for me when it comes to your input.
Sorry, I don't think that I was complaining. We're in a new cycle. I was making note of the fact that there were zero posts in that forum, in regards to what people would like to see come to the staff view. If we are to go digging around in the staff view, we're going to want to improve the tool set and bring it up to date. A lot has changed in the market since those tools were first introduced.
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microapp
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 12:50:46
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Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk]
I can see this is a hot topic, so I took a look at the Feature Request forum (http://forum.cakewalk.com/Features-Ideas-f76.aspx). Maybe I missed something, but I don't see any Staff View features or requests listed in the 2 pages there. If there are, I unfortunately missed it and they are definitely not the most popular topics. Anyways, to start addressing concerns we'll need to know what Staff users really want/need and to see what type of support they get.
Please take a moment and start listing what you'd like to see over in that forum.
vintagevibe
....
Others from Cakewalk have told me it will never get any major upgrade.
.....
Do you remember who those employees were and what year? It's entirely possible they aren't even with the company anymore.
OK I was perfectly willing to give you guys the benefit of the doubt but this is insulting. Who were they and maybe they left the company ? You have just flipped me over to the dark side. Google either one of these lines to see some Staff View requests. musicXML site:forum.cakewalk.com "staff view" site:forum.cakewalk.com Some of the hits go back to 2006 maybe earlier. And there are hundreds of them.
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Susan G
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 12:51:17
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Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk
I was making note of the fact that there were zero posts in that forum, in regards to what people would like to see come to the staff view.
Hi Seth- They're starting to come in now. Thanks- -Susan
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michael diemer
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 12:55:33
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Longtime CW user here, started with 6.0. I read music and use the staff view extensively. I also use event list for volume changes. I never use piano roll. So I guess I am probably very atypical. Basically, I use Sonar (8.5) as if it were a notation system, but then have the benefit of much better sound. Not that Sonar's notation system is to be confused with Sibelius, Finale or Notion. But I don't expect it to be. To me, it's just the way I edit. Because I write for orchestra, I need to see all the instruments playing at a given time. I have to see how they fit with each other in terms of range, harmony and orchestration factors. Staff view is the only thing that really allows this, at least for me. Piano view would only confuse me. so, I'm in the curious position of saying I have stayed with sonar because of the staff view. I tried the free version of Cubase (the one that comes with their interfaces), but did not like it. I looked into Reaper, but they have no staff view. I have joined their forum to add my voice to those calling for a staff view in Reaper. In fact, I drew their attention to Sonar's staff view. If it were even that good, I might consider migrating to Reaper. but it looks like that is a long shot. I think those who say that folks who use DAWS don't use staff view as much are probably right. But I will stay with Sonar until someone else has a comparable DAW with a better staff view. Having said all this, I would really love a better staff view in Sonar. In my opinion, they would then be the premier DAW. As it stands, I think they are among the best. A staff view as good as Cubase would elevate them to the top.
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ltb
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 13:00:09
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Kamikaze
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 13:08:13
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I also trawled through Features request a yesterday or the day before and found as you found. In this thread I asked for someone to start a thread in there as I did not feel I was familiar enough with a) Staff view b) music theory, to start an maintain a starting posting there. http://forum.cakewalk.com/Staff-View-Bugs-m3151462.aspx When there were no takers I sats down tonight and did some searches to try a summarise the wants of posters in a structured way, linking to posts, and showing there was an interest. But in truth it seems their isn't a demand to make it into anything special, just something that works well ie fixed. My main use has been trying to take sheet music and use the staff view to input it into Sonar. I beat my head against a wall trying to do so. In hindsight and after reading its seems that it was because bugs such as to do with triplets and snapping were the reasons I was pulling my hair out. Ironically one of the threads, where a poster was struggling met the defence from the OP of this thread http://forum.cakewalk.com...iew-Bugs-m3151462.aspx jsg
No, its not that bad. I've written and produced over 32 symphonic movements using the staff view, anyone who says its unusable is wrong. Using keybindings to choose which note-value you want to enter really speeds things up a lot. There are a few bugs with the SNAP function (the staff view snap function is independent of the universal snap function on the control bar) but completely usable. It does need improvement but it gets the job done if you're willing to invest the time to learn it well.
JG
www.jerrygerber.com
http://forum.cakewalk.com/notation-editor-is-too-bad-and-hard-to-work-on-m3120862.aspx but it seems this defender is finally sick the little things not being taken care of. Going by the above post, he is well qualified and familiar with it to really comment. In you new model, we only get bug fixes for the year we subscribe, but if you haven't addressed bugs from previous years, and state that this has been yet again been deferred. You must understand the cynicism. It seems the bugs on SV effect all users and as such, should not be deferred, especially with your new model, it's asking us for commitment, without giving it.
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Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk]
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 13:09:12
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microapp
Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk]
I can see this is a hot topic, so I took a look at the Feature Request forum (http://forum.cakewalk.com/Features-Ideas-f76.aspx). Maybe I missed something, but I don't see any Staff View features or requests listed in the 2 pages there. If there are, I unfortunately missed it and they are definitely not the most popular topics. Anyways, to start addressing concerns we'll need to know what Staff users really want/need and to see what type of support they get.
Please take a moment and start listing what you'd like to see over in that forum.
vintagevibe
....
Others from Cakewalk have told me it will never get any major upgrade.
.....
Do you remember who those employees were and what year? It's entirely possible they aren't even with the company anymore.
OK I was perfectly willing to give you guys the benefit of the doubt but this is insulting.
Who were they and maybe they left the company ?
You have just flipped me over to the dark side.
Google either one of these lines to see some Staff View requests.
musicXML site:forum.cakewalk.com
"staff view" site:forum.cakewalk.com
Some of the hits go back to 2006 maybe earlier.
And there are hundreds of them.
Since 2006 Cakewalk has had 2 different owners, 2 different CEO's, and switched to an entirely new distribution/development model. To say a lot has changed internally since then is an understatement. We really don't have the time to dig through thousands of posts from years ago. What really matters now is the current group of developers, our support personnel, and facilitating and updating tools for users to send us feedback. Susan G
Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk
I was making note of the fact that there were zero posts in that forum, in regards to what people would like to see come to the staff view.
Hi Seth-
They're starting to come in now.
Thanks-
-Susan
Thank you Susan!
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 13:12:01
(permalink)
You have convinced me that Cake does not have the chops to do this.
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