Kamikaze
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 13:30:34
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carl
Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk]
Kamikaze
So you are complaining that no one has posted anything in a new forum. When people are complaining about fixes that haven't been implemented that pre-date that forum, after a new release.
I'm failing to see your logic here, which is a first for me when it comes to your input.
Sorry, I don't think that I was complaining. We're in a new cycle. I was making note of the fact that there were zero posts in that forum, in regards to what people would like to see come to the staff view. If we are to go digging around in the staff view, we're going to want to improve the tool set and bring it up to date. A lot has changed in the market since those tools were first introduced.
+1 staff & notation fixes
http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com...aff-View-m2895741.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com...-view-m2460795-p4.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com...NOTATION-m2746474.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com...grammers-m2310046.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com...mmary-m1743654-p4.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com...ggestion-m2288777.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com...aff-View-m2217411.aspx
Wow! Just going through those threads I notice 2 things. One, the wide range of users complaining, it's not the same small group though there is some consistency, but a broad range of users, and they are not just saying +1, they are expressing opinions. And two, the complaints that cakewalk have been reassuring for years it will get looked at.
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SONARtist
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 13:30:35
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I don't think it's beneficial to continue a debate with Seth around what happened in the past - we all know that the Bakers did not come up with the goods !
It would be better to just get the known "features" (read bug-fixes) into the "Feedback Loop" forum as single items. You can "vote" for them there too.
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Kamikaze
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 13:44:14
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Greeny
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 13:55:17
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SvenArne
I admire the patience of the Staff View People! You haven't got thrown a bone since the early 2000s, but you still hang in there!
I can actually read and write music to a fair degree, but I rarely ever use notation when DAWing.
this +1 I would have bough something else by now if it were so important to me, not wanting to sond like a *$!% but I would have!
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joden
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 14:00:51
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Anderton..........And FWIW, the last time this was brought I'm pretty sure someone from Cakewalk said it was not a priority for the next update.
Exactly the point of the O.P. 
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microapp
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 14:08:11
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Staff View Fans. Please go to this link. It is the Ideas and Features Forum. http://forum.cakewalk.com/Features-Ideas-f76.aspxYou will find several threads regarding Staff View and MusicXML fixes. In the first post in each of the threads, click on the stars shown on the right to vote for the idea. You can only vote once so I suggest you click 5 stars.
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jsg
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 14:41:01
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☄ Helpfulby jatoth 2015/01/20 18:02:04
Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk]
Kamikaze
So you are complaining that no one has posted anything in a new forum. When people are complaining about fixes that haven't been implemented that pre-date that forum, after a new release.
I'm failing to see your logic here, which is a first for me when it comes to your input.
Sorry, I don't think that I was complaining. We're in a new cycle. I was making note of the fact that there were zero posts in that forum, in regards to what people would like to see come to the staff view. If we are to go digging around in the staff view, we're going to want to improve the tool set and bring it up to date. A lot has changed in the market since those tools were first introduced.
Seth, you got to be kidding!! I've written, called, filed problem reports and posted on this forum many times over the past several years that the staff view, since X1 has new bugs that ought to be addressed. CW cannot plead ignorance about these bugs. The tied and dotted triplet issue probably will never get fixed, but snap bugs? They are basic to the operation of the MIDI editor. Why does CW take one MIDI editor seriously (the PRV) and not take the other one equally seriously (notation), particularly when details involving phrase shaping, orchestration and polyphony are dealt with far more successfully in notation than in the PRV. There are people on this forum, no matter how much others try to enlighten them, who still think that the notation editor of a DAW should be able to do what Sibelius does. This is not true, nobody who understands the function of a MIDI editor in a DAW expects that from the staff view. What IS expected is for it to work as a MIDI editor, which doesn't include printing publish-quality scores, that is not the function of the notation editor. Fixing the triplet issue and the snap bugs and the right-click property bug (for notes below the staff) and the garbled order of the track pane instrument list would go a long way to making the staff view into a solid MIDI editor. JG www.jerrygerber.com
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microapp
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 14:47:46
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stevec
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 14:49:30
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I've now voted on them all.  BTW, I'm pretty sure that this is what Seth was referring to as the current means of establishing priority. The long list of links posted earlier are from general SONAR forum threads dating from 2009-2013. Which means that: A) It's not necessarily the same group of users (or updates) as today, and more importantly B) There's no way to gauge feedback/popularity on each aspect when in generic forum threads vs. using the new star system. Oh, did I mentioned I voted on those feature requests? And personally, I thought it was great how everyone broke them out into easily digestible chunks so that each one can be rated on its own merit.
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joden
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 14:54:05
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jsg
.............Why does CW take one MIDI editor seriously (the PRV) and not take the other one equally seriously (notation), particularly when details involving phrase shaping, orchestration and polyphony are dealt with far more successfully in notation than in the PRV. T
JG
www.jerrygerber.com
Because notation does not mean much, if anything, to the perceived market strengths...those who cannot read music and are more interested in "cut and paste" and glue it together. For that PRV is about all that is needed. Forget those people who want to try and create scores, or any sort of sheet music. The "fob off" of CW saying , "...well use another app then" speaks volumes. It would seem that none of the staff at CW can either use notation and/or are simply not interested. There needs to be a internal desire to add notation properly, as they certainly do not appear to take any notice of 3rd party (forum/other) requests.
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microapp
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 14:58:26
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Steve,
You are right.
It is a poor excuse though. Like some govt agency telling you you used the wrong form.
I had forgotten about the voting thing myself and I don't think a lot of forum users even know about it.
So let's use the proper channel and see what happens.
Thanks for taking the time to vote.
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Paul P
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 15:02:51
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What I don't understand is that Cakewalk would undoubtedly make more sales if they had a proper Staff View.
There are lot more musicians in the world who can read notation than can read a PRV.
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SONARtist
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 15:15:56
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I give up ... I was not speaking about a fully-blown and public distributable immaculate sheet music printout. All I need is a basic "handout" print-off which is given to musicians and then discussed (and manually corrected) before recording. I could accept what is currently available in SONAR .. IF it printed correctly (e.g. triplets). But there could be further enhancements, not just bug fixes, and I have voted on most of the ones submitted.
Thanks to all who added their requests.
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SONARtist
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 15:16:24
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And I can't distribute PRVs !!
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cityrat
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 15:23:58
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microapp
Steve,
You are right.
It is a poor excuse though. Like some govt agency telling you you used the wrong form.
I had forgotten about the voting thing myself and I don't think a lot of forum users even know about it.
So let's use the proper channel and see what happens.
Thanks for taking the time to vote.
Just voted and will add some more when I'm home. Count me in on the clueless of the "voting" thing. [ I Voted!]
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Anderton
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 15:44:05
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SONARtist
I give up ... I was not speaking about a fully-blown and public distributable immaculate sheet music printout. All I need is a basic "handout" print-off which is given to musicians and then discussed (and manually corrected) before recording.
That's what I get from your posts, which is why I thought it would make sense if Cakewalk made the SV functional for the majority of users who need SV, and not worry about making the "staff view to end all staff views." They're too far behind in that race to catch up, without a lot of additional resources.
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SONARtist
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 15:48:59
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Anderton
SONARtist
I give up ... I was not speaking about a fully-blown and public distributable immaculate sheet music printout. All I need is a basic "handout" print-off which is given to musicians and then discussed (and manually corrected) before recording.
That's what I get from your posts, which is why I thought it would make sense if Cakewalk made the SV functional for the majority of users who need SV, and not worry about making the "staff view to end all staff views." They're too far behind in that race to catch up, without a lot of additional resources.
Thank you so much Craig - at least someone understands me :-)
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joden
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 16:12:13
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And I very much doubt that the other folks are asking for more than that either sonartist...so don't alienate your support for this.
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microapp
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 16:58:22
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Anderton
SONARtist
I give up ... I was not speaking about a fully-blown and public distributable immaculate sheet music printout. All I need is a basic "handout" print-off which is given to musicians and then discussed (and manually corrected) before recording.
That's what I get from your posts, which is why I thought it would make sense if Cakewalk made the SV functional for the majority of users who need SV, and not worry about making the "staff view to end all staff views." They're too far behind in that race to catch up, without a lot of additional resources.
I don't see a lot of pie in the sky request type posts here. Most are quite reasonable and involve fixing issues with SV that have been ignored for what 9-10 years. For people who want Finale or Sibelius like functionality...Fix the MusicXML export and add musicXML import so they can use either of these or whatever their favorite notation program happens to be. Here is a list of music software that supports musicXML. It shows whether each program supports export only, import only or both import/export. http://www.musicxml.com/software/Some of the programs with full musicXML support I have never even heard of and some I consider to be toys. Somehow though, they managed to do it.
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cityrat
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 17:09:26
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joden
And I very much doubt that the other folks are asking for more than that either sonartist...so don't alienate your support for this.
Agreed. Most of the people asking for updates, etc are careful to state this. But it seems that there are some people (who generally don't use SV) who do need to chime in and say that CW should not spend all it's resources on a full on Sib/Finale competitor - implying or thinking that's what we want. But as was said - glad Craig gets it. I think we're trying to be clear enough.
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microapp
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 17:14:21
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I don't even know where the 'Staff view to end all Staff views" meme came from. I think one guy wanted music publisher quality printed scores. For him the musicXML interface to notation software would solve his problem.
Sounds like a straw man argument to me.
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mcouture1961
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 17:23:56
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what I would really like is somethnig similar to VST Expression maps in Cubase and the link to notation. This way we could manipulate midi data with standard musical notation to change articulations, nuances, tempo changes, song markers, etc.
Just look for some VST expression maps videos on You Tube and you will see what I mean.
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pbognar
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 17:25:00
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cityrat
joden
And I very much doubt that the other folks are asking for more than that either sonartist...so don't alienate your support for this.
Agreed. Most of the people asking for updates, etc are careful to state this. But it seems that there are some people (who generally don't use SV) who do need to chime in and say that CW should not spend all it's resources on a full on Sib/Finale competitor - implying or thinking that's what we want.
But as was said - glad Craig gets it. I think we're trying to be clear enough.
exactly... just fix the 5 or 6 SV limitations no need to torque off the rest of the Sonar customers or drain the Sonar resource pool
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microapp
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 17:33:19
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mcouture1961
what I would really like is somethnig similar to VST Expression maps in Cubase and the link to notation. This way we could manipulate midi data with standard musical notation to change articulations, nuances, tempo changes, song markers, etc.
Just look for some VST expression maps videos on You Tube and you will see what I mean.
Please put this in the Ideas and Features forum so we can vote on it. http://forum.cakewalk.com/Features-Ideas-f76.aspxThanks
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Anderton
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 17:38:38
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microapp
I don't even know where the 'Staff view to end all Staff views" meme came from. I think one guy wanted music publisher quality printed scores. For him the musicXML interface to notation software would solve his problem.
Sounds like a straw man argument to me.
No one else said that, I said that - "I thought it would make sense if Cakewalk made the SV functional for the majority of users who need SV, and not worry about making the 'staff view to end all staff views.' They're too far behind in that race to catch up, without a lot of additional resources." I'm just saying I think they should make it functional for the majority of users, and not worry about anything heavier-duty than that in order to try and compete with, say, Sibelius. I never said that's what other people were asking for, just that I don't think they should go down that road.
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microapp
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 17:42:22
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Anderton
microapp
I don't even know where the 'Staff view to end all Staff views" meme came from. I think one guy wanted music publisher quality printed scores. For him the musicXML interface to notation software would solve his problem.
Sounds like a straw man argument to me.
No one else said that, I said that - "I thought it would make sense if Cakewalk made the SV functional for the majority of users who need SV, and not worry about making the 'staff view to end all staff views.' They're too far behind in that race to catch up, without a lot of additional resources."
I'm just saying I think they should make it functional for the majority of users, and not worry about anything heavier-duty than that in order to try and compete with, say, Sibelius. I never said that's what other people were asking for, just that I don't think they should go down that road.
And this is what everyone else is saying too. For those who want more ...Add/fix the musicXML interface.
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michael diemer
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 18:42:07
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Another improvement for SV that would be huge: being able to print only the instruments playing at a given time. For example, in a symphony, if only the strings are playing, only the strings are displayed/printed. So that when you go to print, the first page has all the instruments (so you know what they are), and then the score gets tabulated so that each page has only those instruments currently playing. I shouldn't think that would be too hard to do. It's a distraction to have every instrument showing on every page, regardless of whether they are playing. A conductor would not waste his time looking at such a score.
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microapp
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 19:11:25
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Michael, Currently SV is not capable of handling even simple triplet notation correctly. A full orchestral score is not really possible currently to display correctly let alone print. Such a score would best be done in software designed to handle such things (Finale,Sibelius,Notion). Notation programs should have no trouble handling what you describe since that is what they are designed for. However, there is some interest in getting Cake to fully implement musicXML which allows notation programs to exchange musical notation with Sonar. You could export a piece composed in Sonar, then import to say Finale and print it like you describe. Cakewalk has shown no interest in what you describe for SV and we are just trying to get them to fix the bugs in SV that have been ignored for years. If you are interested in musicXML support for Sonar, go here http://forum.cakewalk.com/MusicXML-support-m3152945.aspxand click on the 1-5 stars to the right of the thread title to vote to add this feature.
post edited by microapp - 2015/01/20 19:18:50
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TomHelvey
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 20:57:20
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I added feature requests for the things I think would improve the staff view the most, please vote for them if you agree. If I missed something that is really important, please add your own.
Thanks
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Kamikaze
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/01/20 21:35:56
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SONARtist
I give up ... I was not speaking about a fully-blown and public distributable immaculate sheet music printout. All I need is a basic "handout" print-off which is given to musicians and then discussed (and manually corrected) before recording. I could accept what is currently available in SONAR .. IF it printed correctly (e.g. triplets). But there could be further enhancements, not just bug fixes, and I have voted on most of the ones submitted.
Thanks to all who added their requests.
This is all I am after really. Having done a few searches about MusicXML, I started to realise that even asking for a PNG file requires formatting and Rasterisation processes, something probably outside their skill set, and whilst this could be developed, maybe a can of worms. A workable MusicXML file is different though. It''s seems their are programs like LilyPond that could handle them, that are free, and probably some cheep basic notation programs. Without Music XML I can screen dumo and edit in MSPaint, but it's a fudge. A few years back, when VVocal came out, someone posted a string quartet performance by by a non-pro quartet that was loose to say the least, it sounded all right. Then V-Vocal fixed it, and it sounded pretty damned good. Tools like these mean that for non professionals, amateurs can be an assett, but if they are educated through school, they will most likely need printed music. In Brighton, UK I'd see trombonist's on the bus, and think if they would be interested. I won't find them here, but maybe a cellist. I'd need a print out to have them play. Just to tell them to concentrate on there tone, would probably be enough for me to fix anything after
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